Devs: Engineers Should carry Ammo packs..not LA's. - Page 12

Ratstomper · 2012-06-18, 12:43 PM

Originally Posted by GreatMazinkaise

PurrfectStorm (unknown number of Rs)... the lovely VS talking head with the lip ring.

...You mean.

SergeantNubins · 2012-06-18, 01:15 PM

Just a thought, what about maxes carrying deployable ammo packs? Since maxes cant deploy anything, they have to shit out the pack and then have an infantry unit deploy it - but then it stops whatever class does get them allegedly being op...

Or have it so they drop the normal ammo packs, but they dont work for max weapons, part of the use of the repair or med tools the medics & engineers have, could then be in rearming maxes.

mintyc · 2012-06-18, 01:46 PM

@ragemaster

my point is that an LA's time is going to be best spent moveing the front line foraward by disrupting the enemys front line and not haveing to worry about ther own front lines haveing an ammo pack when they move up. as for encorageing lone wolf LA's, there ammo pool will not last that long and will send them back for a resurply fairly regularly. giveing them an ammo pack will ether keep them away form the front lines for longer or have them spending a fair ammount of time resurpluying a moveing front line.

i would much rather the LA be given something that helps them in that flanking/disruption role than them being partly responsible for surplying the front line. thats why i am in favor of giveing them more granades and more granade types, things like spider bombs, cluster/napalm granades, you know suff that can realy make a mess of a squad in cover.

another point you may want to consider is that a LA's role as a flanker will see them heading for places that are ether hard to reach or imposable for other clases to reach. they will be on top of tall crates, buldings and walls they will also be going into enemy held buildings through roofs and balconys, all places combat medics cant get to them should they need a rez.

with enginers alredy haveing a deployable surpply term the only other viable front line classes for an ammo pack is ether the combat medic or heavy assult. so long as you make it a choice between combat effectiveness and surport utility, giveing an ammo pack to ether should work nicely.

Shinsharogi · 2012-06-18, 01:54 PM

Originally Posted by SergeantNubins

Just a thought, what about maxes carrying deployable ammo packs? Since maxes cant deploy anything, they have to shit out the pack and then have an infantry unit deploy it - but then it stops whatever class does get them allegedly being op...

Or have it so they drop the normal ammo packs, but they dont work for max weapons, part of the use of the repair or med tools the medics & engineers have, could then be in rearming maxes.

I agree, maxes are big hulking targets, so normally everyone would aim for him anyways. Also they are terribly slow and they seem to run out of ammo pretty quickly considering from what I seen from the e3 stream. I think maxes should have at least a support role rather than always being a tanky infantry that counters air or land, but this is just my opinion.

Edit- I also seen some maxes from ps1 carrying ammo and med/engi juices. Especially during a gen hold.

Envenom · 2012-06-18, 01:55 PM

HA's get my vote

Ghstmarauder · 2012-06-18, 02:24 PM

As someone who usually plays the Support class and I plan to be an Engineer, we do not need the ammo pack, especially if we have a way to break down equipment we place(it'd be nice but idk if it is an idea or not).

We are focusing on repairing vehicles and maxes and setting up the base defenses. Allowing us to replenish mines on the go so we can keep CEing a base would be ridiculous, theres a reason why the ammo terminals in the deployable shields didn't have ACEs.

mintyc · 2012-06-18, 02:31 PM

Originally Posted by Ghstmarauder

As someone who usually plays the Support class and I plan to be an Engineer, we do not need the ammo pack, especially if we have a way to break down equipment we place(it'd be nice but idk if it is an idea or not).

We are focusing on repairing vehicles and maxes and setting up the base defenses. Allowing us to replenish mines on the go so we can keep CEing a base would be ridiculous, theres a reason why the ammo terminals in the deployable shields didn't have ACEs.

things in the Engineer cert tree...

Deconstructor

Mobile Armament Supply Terminal

http://wiki.planetside-universe.com/ps/Engineer

Meriv · 2012-06-18, 02:37 PM

Originally Posted by mintyc

things in the Engineer cert tree...

Deconstructor

Mobile Armament Supply Terminal

http://wiki.planetside-universe.com/ps/Engineer

just two certificates to master clarymores? omg i won't like that

anyone knows if they explode on friendly too?

RageMasterUK · 2012-06-18, 02:43 PM

Originally Posted by mintyc

@ragemaster

my point is that an LA's time is going to be best spent moveing the front line foraward by disrupting the enemys front line and not haveing to worry about ther own front lines haveing an ammo pack when they move up.

I agree with the first bit. I disagree with the second bit.

If an LA is hoping to move the front line forward by blazing ahead, what better way of encouraging teammates to follow than dropping ammo packs ahead of the frontline? This explains why I think LA ARE THE PERFECT CLASS FOR AMMO PACKS.

If I saw a LA group move forward and drop ammo packs ahead of my line, troops would be MORE LIKELY to move forward to the ammo cache. With ammo packs Light Assault can do EXACTLY what you think they should do in this regard (pulling other friendlies forward), only much much more effectively.

Originally Posted by mintyc

as for encorageing lone wolf LA's, there ammo pool will not last that long and will send them back for a resurply fairly regularly. giveing them an ammo pack will ether keep them away form the front lines for longer or have them spending a fair ammount of time resurpluying a moveing front line.

Whatever LoneWolf encouragement the ammo crate gives them, their diminished armor rating will cancel it out. LA will be seeking medics much much sooner than any other class. No-one likes running around with 10 percent health, particularly the lone-wolfers. Most LA's will die before they need more ammo, I can almost guarantee you that.

Originally Posted by mintyc

i would much rather the LA be given something that helps them in that flanking/disruption role than them being partly responsible for surplying the front line. thats why i am in favor of giveing them more granades and more granade types, things like spider bombs, cluster/napalm granades, you know suff that can realy make a mess of a squad in cover.

I think this is a terrible idea. The only class that can defy gravity gets extra AOE gravity assisted, aim-at-floor weapons? The only class that can hide in inaccesible places get a remote guided spiderbomb? This is a recipe for OP LA. Thats a no from me to AOE weapons for Jetpack troopers. I want the Liberator to stay as the only high altitude bomber.

Originally Posted by mintyc

another point you may want to consider is that a LA's role as a flanker will see them heading for places that are ether hard to reach or imposable for other clases to reach. they will be on top of tall crates, buldings and walls they will also be going into enemy held buildings through roofs and balconys, all places combat medics cant get to them should they need a rez.

Dude, I'll re-iterate. LA are the most maneuverable class. How completely unreasonable to expect medics to come chasing after your dead corpse if you've broken coherency. You have the power of the maneuverability as LA, so you should at least take the responsibility of dying in an appropriate place. I would rage so hard on the LA if he got upset with me because I couldnt rez him on top of the comms pylon he stupidly flew ontop of. I'd rage even harder if I was out of ammo. LA would be more likely to die in a rezzable place if they have a reason to stay near their squad (ammo packs).

Let me explain my considerations. If LA are going to try pulling these stunts, flying off without support, taking on the enemy alone, they should live with the consequences of breaking away from their less-mobile medic counterpart. LA should be prepared to respawn if they break away from their squad and die. This isn't even something I'd want to address or fix. This is simply how it should be.

Nubins I think MAXs should be the class that needs the support, not gives it out. Max = Max Armor = Max Damage Output. The work-around using the second player is just over-complicated.

-RageMasterUK

Sledgecrushr · 2012-06-18, 02:48 PM

Originally Posted by mintyc

@ragemaster

my point is that an LA's time is going to be best spent moveing the front line foraward by disrupting the enemys front line and not haveing to worry about ther own front lines haveing an ammo pack when they move up. as for encorageing lone wolf LA's, there ammo pool will not last that long and will send them back for a resurply fairly regularly. giveing them an ammo pack will ether keep them away form the front lines for longer or have them spending a fair ammount of time resurpluying a moveing front line.

i would much rather the LA be given something that helps them in that flanking/disruption role than them being partly responsible for surplying the front line. thats why i am in favor of giveing them more granades and more granade types, things like spider bombs, cluster/napalm granades, you know suff that can realy make a mess of a squad in cover.

another point you may want to consider is that a LA's role as a flanker will see them heading for places that are ether hard to reach or imposable for other clases to reach. they will be on top of tall crates, buldings and walls they will also be going into enemy held buildings through roofs and balconys, all places combat medics cant get to them should they need a rez.

with enginers alredy haveing a deployable surpply term the only other viable front line classes for an ammo pack is ether the combat medic or heavy assult. so long as you make it a choice between combat effectiveness and surport utility, giveing an ammo pack to ether should work nicely.

Umm...MAXs move the front line forward. LA will work to support MAXs by securing and attacking flanks and attacking from high ground wherever possible.

mintyc · 2012-06-18, 03:33 PM

Originally Posted by RageMasterUK

I agree with the first bit. I disagree with the second bit.

If an LA is hoping to move the front line forward by blazing ahead, what better way of encouraging teammates to follow than dropping ammo packs ahead of the frontline? This explains why I think LA ARE THE PERFECT CLASS FOR AMMO PACKS.

If I saw a LA group move forward and drop ammo packs ahead of my line, troops would be MORE LIKELY to move forward to the ammo cache. With ammo packs Light Assault can do EXACTLY what you think they should do in this regard (pulling other friendlies forward), only much much more effectively.

the enemy and cover will dictate the frontline long befor an ammo pack. you need ammo packs wher the frontline is not where it might end up being.

Originally Posted by RageMasterUK

Whatever LoneWolf encouragement the ammo crate gives them, their diminished armor rating will cancel it out. LA will be seeking medics much much sooner than any other class. No-one likes running around with 10 percent health, particularly the lone-wolfers. Most LA's will die before they need more ammo, I can almost guarantee you that.

not necaceraly, PS2 has regenarating health and the LA's dont have much so it recharges fairly quickly. with ther jump jets they can probably find a safe spot to hide for a few seconds when they disengage.

Originally Posted by RageMasterUK

I think this is a terrible idea. The only class that can defy gravity gets extra AOE gravity assisted, aim-at-floor weapons? The only class that can hide in inaccesible places get a remote guided spiderbomb? This is a recipe for OP LA. Thats a no from me to AOE weapons for Jetpack troopers. I want the Liberator to stay as the only high altitude bomber.

granades will cost recorces so i dont think the liberator has to fear for its job and part of the LA's job will be to hunt down enemy LA's who are trying to flank. so as a LA you are not realy gona have alot of time when you do flank.

Originally Posted by RageMasterUK

Dude, I'll re-iterate. LA are the most maneuverable class. How completely unreasonable to expect medics to come chasing after your dead corpse if you've broken coherency. You have the power of the maneuverability as LA, so you should at least take the responsibility of dying in an appropriate place. I would rage so hard on the LA if he got upset with me because I couldnt rez him on top of the comms pylon he stupidly flew ontop of. I'd rage even harder if I was out of ammo. LA would be more likely to die in a rezzable place if they have a reason to stay near their squad (ammo packs).

Let me explain my considerations. If LA are going to try pulling these stunts, flying off without support, taking on the enemy alone, they should live with the consequences of breaking away from their less-mobile medic counterpart. LA should be prepared to respawn if they break away from their squad and die. This isn't even something I'd want to address or fix. This is simply how it should be.

Nubins I think MAXs should be the class that needs the support, not gives it out. Max = Max Armor = Max Damage Output. The work-around using the second player is just over-complicated.

-RageMasterUK

you will never stop a LA form dieing in a hard to reach place as that is wher they will have to fight from to be most effective. all giveing the LA an ammo pack will do is ether tie them to the main group as a surport trooper or have the teams ammo pack wonder off and die. giveing such a high risk class an important surport role will not realy help them or the team.

any good LA player will be doing hit and run attacks on enamy flanks and soft spots, getting out befor the enemy responds and swamps them. with only 300 rounds and about 3 granades (from what i could see in the e3 vids) LA's will need to stay within sight of the front line for a resurplys, which is exactly the place they need to be, on the edges causing havok. LA's will act more like cavalry, fast, hard hitting and dead if caught out of position.

RageMasterUK · 2012-06-18, 09:28 PM

Originally Posted by mintyc

the enemy and cover will dictate the frontline long befor an ammo pack. you need ammo packs wher the frontline is not where it might end up being.

Can we agree that when someone sees an ammo pack, it will influence where they move? I think so. You want to influence the movement of the frontline, ammo packs are just one extra element in the equation. LA's can provide further incentive for other troops to move forward with the ammo pack.

Originally Posted by mintyc

PS2 has regenarating health and the LA's dont have much so it recharges fairly quickly. with ther jump jets they can probably find a safe spot to hide for a few seconds when they disengage.

To recharge their shield, maybe it might take a few seconds.

Maybe you are unaware that health regenerates at a very, very slow pace. You will not want to wait 2 minutes for your health regain when you can jetpack over to the closest medic in 30 seconds. You are ceirtainly not going to be able to recover from a serious attack in a few seconds. LA has the least shields, their health starts to get chewed up after a few bullets.

Your posts sort of read like you believe you're rarely going to visit a medic. I fear your Light Assault will be visiting the medic more than most classes. Either that or the local spawnpoint. You got the least armor dude, its just maths.

Originally Posted by mintyc

granades will cost recorces so i dont think the liberator has to fear for its job

Sure I flavoured that statement up somewhat, but Liberators cost resources too, so it depends on pricing. Also, Liberators require the combined effort of atleast 2 soldiers to rain death from above.

I dont want a lone-wolf LA flying grenade spamfest to contend with thats for ceirtain!

Originally Posted by mintyc

you will never stop a LA form dieing in a hard to reach place as that is wher they will have to fight from to be most effective. all giveing the LA an ammo pack will do is ether tie them to the main group as a surport trooper or have the teams ammo pack wonder off and die. giveing such a high risk class an important surport role will not realy help them or the team.

They are not tied to anything! THEY CAN JUST DROP THE AMMO PACK! ITS A DROPPABLE AMMO PACK. You dont even have to drop it for anyone if thats your playstyle but jeez, how hard is it really? As the most maneuverable class?

You dont think you might run past troops needing ammo after you spawn, while getting to the frontline? You will do so often for ceirtain if you're not visiting the medic. And if you do visit medics you can drop your box next to him, him and all of his patients will appreciate it.

You press the drop ammo key and forget about your support role its that simple. Its like the LEAST DISRUPTIVE SUPPORT ROLE EVER. You could do it accidentally its that easy.

Originally Posted by mintyc

any good LA player will be doing hit and run attacks on enamy flanks and soft spots, getting out befor the enemy responds and swamps them. with only 300 rounds and about 3 granades (from what i could see in the e3 vids) LA's will need to stay within sight of the front line for a resurplys, which is exactly the place they need to be, on the edges causing havok.
LA's will act more like cavalry, fast, hard hitting and dead if caught out of position.

Unless SOE stripped ammo drops from the LA already, any good LA player will be killing enemies and delivering ammo like the class dictates. Good LA players will be trying to earn XP through all means given to them, not just kill-whoring. My imagination is that a good LA player will be playing as you are suggesting, WHILE IN ADDITION providing ammo to the harder troops that have managed to move forward and join them. The really good LA's will detour for mobs of friendlies out of ammo, knowing there is big XP score behind the action.

Your post reads like how you want to play LA is how you want everyone else to play. Please consider how other LAs might want to play, and the class-within-class ethos PS2 has demonstrated so far. I really love the idea of using a Jetpacking Light Assault to deliver ammo quickly to hard to reach units while under fire. I think it might be epic to depend upon, and to experience firsthand.

I agree with you wholeheartedly with your assesment of what Light Assaults combat capabilities should be (exept mid-air grenade spamming LA's). I just think that you are naive to want to strip them of their support role also. Its worth XP to the LA class and doesnt stop any of the gameplay you are advocating. You're just trying to pigeonhole people who want to deliver ammo as LA.

Ammo Pack or No Ammo Pack, Your playstyle will remain unnaffected. The only gripe you can have is if you have an issue with getting ammo off Light Assaults. Whoever gets the ammo packs will deliver if its worth XP. If you dont want to do it, just serve yourself ammo on a roof while you're recharging your health for 2 minutes and let other LA's pull your weight. They will do.

I say leave it in as an option for people who dont mind the responsibility and like the concept of epic, johnny on the spot ammo deliveries.

At the end of the day, who we get ammo from is irrelevant so long as we get the damn ammo ASAP when we are out, wherever we are. And I think we can both agree on which class does the get-to-where-you-are-ASAP best.

Light Assault. Form Follows Function..

-RageMasterUK

FuzzyandBlue · 2012-06-18, 10:10 PM

I'd have to say that I would prefer either the Engineer or HA having the ammo. It puts the ammo where it needs to be. A LA is meant to be all over the place, it makes them less than ideal as ammo mules.

Engineers on the other hand are meant to stick with their team mates and support them. This set up gives the advantage of ammo being at the front lines making holding a position for long periods of time easier. Then again the engineer already has a ton of things that they can do. It would also suck if they had to replace the deployable turret in order to carry ammo.

I like HA as well. They carry big guns with lots of ammo. This makes them ideal for holding positions, as well as lying down suppression fire, which takes a lot of ammo. With this setup few medics, engineers and HA could set up a very sustainable "base" during an assault.

In either of these cases ammo packs, and med packs, should be limited to a reasonable amount and disappear after so many uses.

mintyc · 2012-06-18, 11:23 PM

@RageMaster

at E3 they mentioned that they mentioned that they would be and i quote "changing it up" as they dident like how ammo pack encoraged LA's lone wolfing about the place. if you want to hear it for yourself check out the TB sream vids on youtube.

also check out how fast the curent health regen rate is on the LA. at one point a LA is taking on a MAX and almost gets killed (down to 3 or 4 bars) health starts regening within 10-15 seconds and is up to full by the time LA kills the MAX less than 30 seconds later. i know things and can and will change in beta but thats how it stands atm.

i feel you are underestimating the effect that granades haveing a cost will have on how players. a player who spams his granades is gona learn fast that he is just throwing away recorces. granades can only be re-stoked at a term so when they are gone you need to run all the way back to one for a refill, meaning that you have even more incentive to be cearfull when you throw them.

as you said Form Follows Function and i belive that giveing the LA an ammo pack will ether lead to him becoming ditached from the front line and geting caught with his pants down or haveing to remain so close to a moveing front line to keep it surplyed that it comprises there ability to flank and disrupt the enemy. the LA with have a rather small window in witch to operate as it is without giveing them a task that will take them away from that window, paticularly when there are better suited classes that is alredy in the main group on the front line.

PoisonTaco · 2012-06-18, 11:32 PM

Give the ammo pack to heavy assault and make them cost resources. If ammo packs have a cost they will only be used if absolutely needed. It gives the HA something to bring for the team, and the resource cost makes it so you can't just throw it around and waste it.