News: New TotalBiscuit Video on IMPLANTS

[Graywolves]

Neat. Interested in seeing what else comes in. I think the vehicle ones will be the most useful.

[exLupo]

Originally Posted by IgloGlass

The thing is that there's no way that can be true. Also, if you've done "research", be prepared to show it, or link your sources otherwise we know that you are lying.

5 minutes on google and I found an article on Gamasutra discussing Maple Story and quoting pay variances between $0/mo and $25/wk. Also, there's an interesting presentation from EA on the successful monetization of Battlefield Heroes.

So you don't have to waste time looking, here's the links.

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/featur...ay_.php?page=3
http://www.slideshare.net/bcousins/paying-to-win

There's also an older one from Nexon that, iirc, in 2004-2006 was noting specifically that they were pulling in an average of $15/mo on active accounts. The article above lists 70ish million accounts and $16 mil monthly revenue but the accounts number for f2p includes all accounts that have been active at any point so cannot be used for simple math.

This should be enough to get you started. You're free to do your own legwork if you want to learn more. Also, in the future, "You're a liar" is not a legitimate counter argument. Asking someone to show their work is fine but being a jerk about it is not.

[mindmines]

O.o Looking forward to this! I'm definitely stoked!

[CutterJohn]

Always love these threads.

I don't wanna pay! But I don't wanna be disadvantaged in any way either!



Nothing but pure entitlement. Throwing the term Pay 2 win around like its a pejorative to justify and excuse being cheap, because who can be bothered to pay for products and services they enjoy in this day and age!

It's like those stupid World of Tanks arguments all over again. OMG gold ammo is pay to win! No. No its not. I bought some, and it improved my K/D ratio by about 5%-10%. Still got my ass handed to me plenty.

Is it ideal? Of course not. But we don't live in fantasy land, this is reality. The game has to be paid for, and cosmetics are not going to do the job(Do not mention TF2. TF2 was already in the black from regular sales before it transitioned to F2P). You can sell convenience, but there is a real fine line between convenience and player power. Are loadout slots power? Not directly, but shaving 10-20s off the respawn times is going to have a long term effect on efficiency, meaning you can buy more. Buying sidegrades and the resource booster means more auraxium for implants and vehicles. Buying the XP booster means you'll have more certs, and no matter how balanced they make it, it will never be perfect, and some certs will be strictly better than others(Oh, and it unlocks booster slots faster).

So. Power is being sold. 100% undeniable. The only question is, how much advantage to sell For my money, I'd prefer they just be straight up and honest. You pay X dollars a month, and get Y power. Exactly like the EQ1/2 F2P models, which have the most fair and honest F2P systems out there. Free players are gimped, but the only thing they can purchase is a simple $15 a month sub. There is no attempts to nickle and dime, no obscuring costs behind weird gold/xp schemes with 5 different currency types where it takes a week to figure out. 1 payment, complete honesty. This is what you pay, this is what you get.

But so long as that sense of entitlement remains, they have to hide p2w behind a dozen lies and scams to obscure the truth, so that people don't notice(Ever wonder why F2P cash systems are so ridiculously complex?). Or, if they do notice, it can be claimed its not really power, not directly. But thats a lie too.

[exLupo]

It's all about dancing the fine line of how much power disparity your player base can handle. From who gets to the max ranks fast enough to quantifiable differences that free players cannot ever touch, you've gotta know how far you can push before your income starts going in the wrong direction.

Everyone says "If you don't like it, vote with your wallet!" It works both ways.

[Otleaz]

Originally Posted by CutterJohn

Always love these threads.

I don't wanna pay! But I don't wanna be disadvantaged in any way either!



Nothing but pure entitlement. Throwing the term Pay 2 win around like its a pejorative to justify and excuse being cheap, because who can be bothered to pay for products and services they enjoy in this day and age!

It's like those stupid World of Tanks arguments all over again. OMG gold ammo is pay to win! No. No its not. I bought some, and it improved my K/D ratio by about 5%-10%. Still got my ass handed to me plenty.

Pay2win doesn't mean you automatically win if you pay. It means you can get an advantage over people who don't pay. Regardless of whether or not your gold bullets won you the game, they still gave you a clear advantage over those without them.

Originally Posted by CutterJohn

Is it ideal? Of course not. But we don't live in fantasy land, this is reality. The game has to be paid for, and cosmetics are not going to do the job(Do not mention TF2. TF2 was already in the black from regular sales before it transitioned to F2P).

Alright, what about Tribes and League of Legends? They both offer systems that leave all players on an even level after the introductory phase of the game. They can come in and play as little as one round a week without having to worry about buying something to keep them on par with everyone else. Tribes even uses a system extremely similar to PS2.

Both games are hugely successful and free to play. PVP Games that sell power like APB often end up in the gutter.

Originally Posted by CutterJohn

So. Power is being sold. 100% undeniable. The only question is, how much advantage to sell For my money, I'd prefer they just be straight up and honest. You pay X dollars a month, and get Y power. Exactly like the EQ1/2 F2P models, which have the most fair and honest F2P systems out there. Free players are gimped, but the only thing they can purchase is a simple $15 a month sub. There is no attempts to nickle and dime, no obscuring costs behind weird gold/xp schemes with 5 different currency types where it takes a week to figure out. 1 payment, complete honesty. This is what you pay, this is what you get.

I'm sure everyone here would much prefer a system like that.

[CutterJohn]

Originally Posted by Otleaz

Pay2win doesn't mean you automatically win if you pay. It means you can get an advantage over people who don't pay.

Then use an appropriate term. Pay for slight statistical advantage, for instance. Or just a simple Pay for power.

Alright, what about Tribes and League of Legends? They both offer systems that leave all players on an even level after the introductory phase of the game. They can come in and play as little as one round a week without having to worry about buying something to keep them on par with everyone else. Tribes even uses a system extremely similar to PS2.

Both games are hugely successful and free to play. PVP Games that sell power like APB often end up in the gutter.

Tribes Ascend: Buying sidegrades gives you far faster access, and frees up XP for purchasing improvements.

LoL: It takes a long time to max characters, and its a rather rock paper scissors game. When you pick your heroes, you may not have access to a direct counter to their class, or yours will be weaker.

Yes, you end up in the same place in both. Eventually. It can take months or years, though. And for those months or years, you're disadvantaged to those who pay. However, many people do not play games for months or years. To these people, the fact that they could eventually reach the level of the veterans/payers without paying is irrelevant.



Purposefully stretching out the grind to ridiculous lengths while maintaining power imbalances indeed Pay to win, even if everyone ends up at the same spot. I am not saying this in a negative fashion, just a truthful one. As is clearly evidenced, I don't think paying for power is necessarily bad thing, provided the imbalance isn't taken to egregious levels or ridiculous prices.

[DemonHunter]

Awesome video i love the video.

[Dreamcast]

I don't really like the fact that the Implants have levels without sacrifice.



Remember what was originally promised that anything making u better at one thing will make u worst at another.


So IMO fast reload 3 should make you have less ammo....Fast reload 1 should make u reload slightly faster but you will lose less ammo than fast reload 3.


That's one the examples.


But it seems the implants don't do a huge difference so is ok.

[Otleaz]

Originally Posted by CutterJohn

Then use an appropriate term. Pay for slight statistical advantage, for instance. Or just a simple Pay for power.


Tribes Ascend: Buying sidegrades gives you far faster access, and frees up XP for purchasing improvements.

LoL: It takes a long time to max characters, and its a rather rock paper scissors game. When you pick your heroes, you may not have access to a direct counter to their class, or yours will be weaker.

Yes, you end up in the same place in both. Eventually. It can take months or years, though. And for those months or years, you're disadvantaged to those who pay. However, many people do not play games for months or years. To these people, the fact that they could eventually reach the level of the veterans/payers without paying is irrelevant.

What I was referring to was the introductory matchmaking both games have.

Tribes puts you into this for the first 8 levels, which is just enough to completely max out one loadout(Primary weapon, secondary weapon, armor, pack, and grenade). Once you have this, you can fill that role just as well as someone with years under their belt, disregarding skill.

League of legends has a hefty elo drop(around -500 elo) until you are level 30. Getting to level 30 will get you just enough to get you a rune page and some of the cheap heroes. While the cheaper heroes usually fit a wide variety of roles, they also let you use 10 free heroes each week which are chosen in a way that guarantees each in game role is available.

You can only use one loadout or runepage at a time. Unlocking more than that gives you versatility, not power. You may not be as useful as someone who has played longer, but you can fit your single role just as well as they can.

Originally Posted by CutterJohn

Purposefully stretching out the grind to ridiculous lengths while maintaining power imbalances indeed Pay to win, even if everyone ends up at the same spot. I am not saying this in a negative fashion, just a truthful one. As is clearly evidenced, I don't think paying for power is necessarily bad thing, provided the imbalance isn't taken to egregious levels or ridiculous prices.

I feel there is a distinct difference between grinding to gain versatility and grinding to gain power.

I'm going to assume you mean the release of overpowered content to bolster sales. Do you believe people would ignore something like that if they had a choice? There is literally no way to call the developers out on something like that unless you secretly recorded them talking about it.

EDIT: I have a feeling I misread your intentions with that last statement. I'm having difficulty understanding your perspective so I will apologize in advance.

[lawnmower]

Originally Posted by Lord Paladin

But these implants -aren't- making you more powerful. That's why so many people are saying they're fine as is. a .25 second increase to your reload is an edge, not an advantage.

how is making you better not making you more powerful?
they -are- making you more powerful and giving you an advantage

[Sunrock]

Originally Posted by lawnmower

how is making you better not making you more powerful?
they -are- making you more powerful and giving you an advantage

Yes it is. Some just try to spin words here to make it sound better.

Giving you an edge is the same thing as saying making you more powerful.

[Klockan]

Originally Posted by Blackwolf

Actually Klockan it's a pretty good chance that it's set for play time rather then a strait 24 hours. Anything else would be robbery and/or encouraging people to play for 24 hours strait just to get their monies worth.

How is that any different than paying a monthly fee, or have you played any game where you pay for ingame time? Also having it as ingame hours just doesn't make sense from a business perspective. Logically people that play less hours have more money to spend so for them it can still be worth it to pay for the full 24 hours even if they just use 1-2 of them, while for the guys who don't got a job and can play all day it might seem overpriced even if they can use all of the 24 hours. Thus this pricing scheme makes a rough adaption to the consumers buying power which increases profit. If everyone payed the same per hour either the guys with money to spend would pay way less than they are willing to or none of the poor guys would ever buy anything.

And how would it be robbery? It will probably cost somewhere around 50 cent to a dollar meaning that buying one each day you play wouldn't be that much more expensive (or it could be even cheaper) than a normal sub.

[Sunrock]

Originally Posted by Klockan

And how would it be robbery? It will probably cost somewhere around 50 cent to a dollar meaning that buying one each day you play wouldn't be that much more expensive (or it could be even cheaper) than a normal sub.

Well a normal sub is $15/month so if it cost more then 50 cent then it would be more expensive. But if you are also expected to buy camo too. (If they really have any imact on the game play witch I don't think they will). 50 cent will get you over that $15/month easily.

[Firearms]

Originally Posted by Sunrock

Well a normal sub is $15/month so if it cost more then 50 cent then it would be more expensive. But if you are also expected to buy camo too. (If they really have any imact on the game play witch I don't think they will). 50 cent will get you over that $15/month easily.

Surely you wouldn't pay everyday...? If you're willing to buy them, you must have planned to use them...gaining you auraxium to buy more?