Spec Ops and Generators - Page 2

Galron · 2013-05-28, 10:52 AM

So basically you want a system where you are lazy and the fight comes to you when you try and capture a base without any defenders. Meanwhile your leet ghostcapping skills sap the front lines of troops and dilute the big fights that haven't been this good since late beta.

NewSith · 2013-05-28, 11:08 AM

Originally Posted by Galron

So basically you want a system where you are lazy and the fight comes to you when you try and capture a base without any defenders. Meanwhile your leet ghostcapping skills sap the front lines of troops and dilute the big fights that haven't been this good since late beta.

No, I just want a possibility to capture a continent during 33x3 and not ghostcap it when my empire has 45% pop.
I want Planetside 2 to have several types of scales of battles.
I want the game to have more strategical choices, than just selecting a lane to attack.

But you can go on being a muppet that makes us Pro-lattice folk look like brainless zealots.

Qwan · 2013-05-28, 12:39 PM

Originally Posted by CraazyCanuck

Never played ps1, though I wish I had, but what was the function of these tunnels you are referring to?

Were they underground infantry bridge points between lattice routes or a whole separate network on to themselves?

They were actually ancient alien underground bases it was an expantion called core combat. Which had capture points and terminals and stuff like that, it wasnt like the regular stuff it was all alien looking and techy. The entrances to these tunnels would open and close on time tables, and holding these would give your faction access to certain weapon tech, like artillary pieces and cloaked flying ships. The zip lines were cool as hell, unfortinatly you can get blasted while zipping on them. Actually Light assault from PS2 would have a blast in the tunnels. It was fun, a lot of good fights in those tunnels.

@NewSith

Ok what we have to do is figure out a way or what conditions have to be meet to make it so that units can take a base behind enemy lines. Im with ya sith lets brain storm it, if we go off of PS1 format you would drain a base till it went neutral and then you would hack the terminal and bring in a gal with a nanit vehicle ready to fill it up once the hack goes threw. This was a common way to start a fight in the middle of enemy territory (I loved that shit). OK so now lets fast forward to PS2 what conditions would have to be meet. Now im going to spout off some ideas.
1. Gen being down for a certain amount of time.
2. Extended hack time. If there is no link then lets say that you have a long hack time. The same for outpost and bases.
3. Ultra viruses, which can be purchased with SC or certs, you put these into the hack terminal and dig in for say 15 or 20 minutes.

OK im done, got any of your own ideas?

ringring · 2013-05-28, 01:18 PM

Originally Posted by CraazyCanuck

Never played ps1, though I wish I had, but what was the function of these tunnels you are referring to?

Were they underground infantry bridge points between lattice routes or a whole separate network on to themselves?

Caves? There were 7 caves in total five were active at any one time an the active/inactive rotated.

They looked entirely different from the normal continents and were meant to be alien.

When active they linked to different bases on the continents and the links also rotated.

The upshot was when attacking a continent you on occasion had another option for an attack route.

e.g. "the attack is blocked at the top, hang on in 5 minutes cave x will become active and that gives us a link that that base in the south-east"

The caves were fun to fight in (opinion, a lot of people didn't like them) but they also gave strategic possibilities for those smart enough to take them.

Of course, looking at it from a defensive point of view, defenders could what would happen and move to block it. e.g. Move and counter-move.

Whiteagle · 2013-05-28, 01:43 PM

Originally Posted by ringring

Ghost popping gens was only done for cheap xp.

No, it was also done to stop fights before they even began, it was just hard to notice because they were down most of the time due to Ghost Poppers anyways...

Originally Posted by Galron

You want backhacking aka ghostcapping? GTFO. Spec ops is fine at the moment, you just no longer get some flashing screen award for it. You need to use your brain if you want spec ops. I'm no genius but here are a few things you can do right now if you wanted.

AA max warpgate camp, harasser wolfpack, gal drop minelayers. You are limited only by your imagination, and it looks like yours didn't get you very far here.

Logistics a la NTU drains or fills are a separate issue and for the record is like to see something like that for ps2.

Well I agree that Spec Ops are still valid even in the current game environment, but...

Originally Posted by NewSith

Go play PS1 if you think ghosthacking and backhacking are same terms.

...Yeah man, Backhacks in the Original Planetside were something that took a bit of effort to pull off.

First you had to Neutralize the Base by making it use up all its Nanite Technology Units, which was basically the fuel used to auto Repair everything.
This required either destroying pretty much everything, I think more then once even, or putting a NTU Drain virus into the Main Console.
Once the Base got to zero NTU, it flipped to Neutral, then you had put NTU back in the Silo to start the usual 15 minute Hack.

This was rather hard to pull off in reality, since NTU levels were constantly displayed on the maps, and one of the easiest ways to gain Experiance was to do refill runs in an Advanced Nantie Transport.

Originally Posted by Galron

How many people are defending the base when you ghost cap and back hack? Here is a hint, 0. You WANT this to be zero or you wouldn't even do it.

Well dude that's where the real difference between Ghost and Backhacking lies; Ghost simply take Bases that are undefended while Backhacking entails triggering some kind of warning that will get you discovered as soon as someone checks the map.
Thus Backhackers NEED to either be prepared to defend their hack, or started it in the first place specifically to draw attention away from another front.

In other words, Backhackers deliberately start hacks so that they either get the Base or Defenders have to waste time dealing with them, while Ghost just hack because they can get away with it.

Originally Posted by CraazyCanuck

Never played ps1, though I wish I had, but what was the function of these tunnels you are referring to?

Were they underground infantry bridge points between lattice routes or a whole separate network on to themselves?

Originally Posted by ringring

Caves? There were 7 caves in total five were active at any one time an the active/inactive rotated.

They looked entirely different from the normal continents and were meant to be alien.

When active they linked to different bases on the continents and the links also rotated.

The upshot was when attacking a continent you on occasion had another option for an attack route.

Yeah, basically they were mini enclosed Continents whose Warpgate Links constantly rotated around a set of access points on the Main Continents, in addition to access of each rotated at set times as well.

ringring · 2013-05-28, 02:01 PM

Originally Posted by Whiteagle

No, it was also done to stop fights before they even began, it was just hard to notice because they were down most of the time due to Ghost Poppers anyways...

Well, that's a valid move and that's why I want the ability to break a gen still there, simply remove xp gain so that if it's done it's done for a tactical reason.

Of course there's more reason to do it once the proper game begins with more conts, fewer 3-ways and more 2-ways.

GeoGnome · 2013-05-28, 02:23 PM

To get something akin to backhacking, back in the game... hmmm

That is a tough one. So by my understanding (I have not seen this done in PS1, in my time played), you drain a base of resources and then start like... a cold reset of the computers, and recapture the base from there by providing some resources?

Well, this would immediately require resources and upkeep for bases, in order to work (Something I would say is somewhat likely in the resource revamp). After that, we'd have to have bases flip to neutral. It'd have to happen on the front line.

But I have a question: Why would you do That, and not just flip the base? I mean it seems a needlessly roundabout solution, when all you need do, is flip or hack a point.

In regards to Spec Ops though as a whole: my hope is that we will get something in the near future, that will allow small and medium sized outfits to do something that contributes to the war effort, but does not necessarily entail capturing territory. Say for example, Flipping resource nodes. Something that is disconnected from the lattice and does not contribute to territory control in anyway, besides possible supplying some kind of friendly location to form up, that would allow these groups to move around and flip/take/hack/destroy something that zergs wont waste their time on.

I immediately jump at resource collection nodes as one of those things, but other options would be as mentioned on FNO: Some kind of generator that powers the actual lattice links themselves. Or you could have some kind of generators or something beneath the base in corridors that are close and compact, meaning a zerg would get funneled and cut to pieces by well placed units (Like say for example, 2 lockdown maxes), that power the bases as a whole (Geothermal power plants... how does that sound?). Or those Core Combat caves, that sounds awesome.

The other thing that occurs to me, is that current population density thing: Population density will not be what it is now, if continental lattices are introduced, people will be forced to spread out over many continents and what have you, so you'll get small unit combat back, just given time.

Whiteagle · 2013-05-28, 03:24 PM

Originally Posted by ringring

Well, that's a valid move and that's why I want the ability to break a gen still there, simply remove xp gain so that if it's done it's done for a tactical reason.

...But you do reailse that Generators in the Original Planetside had 1000 more armor points then a Lightning, took SIXTY rockets to bring down, were constantly auto-repaired by the NTU, AND could be protected by a Pain Field, right?

These were not easy strategic targets to bring down man...

Originally Posted by GeoGnome

Well, this would immediately require resources and upkeep for bases, in order to work (Something I would say is somewhat likely in the resource revamp). After that, we'd have to have bases flip to neutral.

Indeed, I really need to do my write up on a new, Base focused Resource System that makes use of Nanite Pipelines and Advanced Nanite Transports with offensive draining capabilities...

Originally Posted by GeoGnome

It'd have to happen on the front line.

But I have a question: Why would you do That, and not just flip the base? I mean it seems a needlessly roundabout solution, when all you need do, is flip or hack a point.

Well that was the entire point; The Base WASN'T on the Front Line!
This basically gave a Faction another foothold on a Continent they were otherwise routed on, thus you'd have additional Spec Ops dedicated to preventing these Hacks least their Faction end up fighting between Fronts.

Originally Posted by GeoGnome

In regards to Spec Ops though as a whole: my hope is that we will get something in the near future, that will allow small and medium sized outfits to do something that contributes to the war effort, but does not necessarily entail capturing territory. Say for example, Flipping resource nodes. Something that is disconnected from the lattice and does not contribute to territory control in anyway, besides possible supplying some kind of friendly location to form up, that would allow these groups to move around and flip/take/hack/destroy something that zergs wont waste their time on.

I immediately jump at resource collection nodes as one of those things, but other options would be as mentioned on FNO: Some kind of generator that powers the actual lattice links themselves.

Indeed, I've been talking about Nanite Pipelines since Beta, and 'Safety Valves' as a means of affecting enemy Resource Logistics.

A large group would just be too cumbersome to pull off disabling something like that without notice.

Originally Posted by GeoGnome

Or you could have some kind of generators or something beneath the base in corridors that are close and compact, meaning a zerg would get funneled and cut to pieces by well placed units (Like say for example, 2 lockdown maxes), that power the bases as a whole (Geothermal power plants... how does that sound?).

Congratulations, you've just described a PS1 Gen Hold...

Originally Posted by GeoGnome

Or those Core Combat caves, that sounds awesome.

Personally I'd rather Intercontinental Oceans and Naval Combat to move between continents without Warpgates, which was one of the things people were hoping for from Core Combat.

That way we can have Epic Landing Operations to establish Continental Beachheads!

Originally Posted by GeoGnome

The other thing that occurs to me, is that current population density thing: Population density will not be what it is now, if continental lattices are introduced, people will be forced to spread out over many continents and what have you, so you'll get small unit combat back, just given time.

Indeed, one of the issues Planetside 2 has right now is that its throwing too many people into a constant three-way fight.
It gets rather old to be deadlocked with the NC only forced to redeploy because the Vanu have used the stalemate as an opportunity to take your shit on the other shore of a Continent...

GeoGnome · 2013-05-28, 03:36 PM

Originally Posted by Whiteagle

Indeed, I really need to do my write up on a new, Base focused Resource System that makes use of Nanite Pipelines and Advanced Nanite Transports with offensive draining capabilities...

I wrote one out at length here

That was what I thought would work using pipelines and ants and whatnot.

Originally Posted by Whiteagle

Well that was the entire point; The Base WASN'T on the Front Line!
This basically gave a Faction another foothold on a Continent they were otherwise routed on, thus you'd have additional Spec Ops dedicated to preventing these Hacks least their Faction end up fighting between Fronts.

So do you mean it was openning up a front on a continent? That could be interesting, but it would require a continental lattice to work properly... and likely some kind of foothold points to launch out from, independent of the warpgates. Could be cool though.

Originally Posted by Whiteagle

Indeed, I've been talking about Nanite Pipelines since Beta, and 'Safety Valves' as a means of affecting enemy Resource Logistics.

Whole heartedly agreed.

Originally Posted by Whiteagle

A large group would just be too cumbersome to pull off disabling something like that without notice.

This honestly worries me. If resources are located too close to a base, you might have a zerg trying to deal with resource captures. I hope you are right though.

Originally Posted by Whiteagle

Congratulations, you've just described a PS1 Gen Hold...

...Do I get a cookie?

Originally Posted by Whiteagle

Personally I'd rather Intercontinental Oceans and Naval Combat to move between continents without Warpgates, which was one of the things people were hoping for from Core Combat.

That way we can have Epic Landing Operations to establish Continental Beachheads!

No argument here, but I see this as being rather far off, like post continental lattice far off. That isn't to say I don't think it is likely... I do, just think this is something in the 5 year plan, not the 5 month plan (Thus, something I'm not ready to invest a lot of time into mulling over).

Originally Posted by Whiteagle

Indeed, one of the issues Planetside 2 has right now is that its throwing too many people into a constant three-way fight.
It gets rather old to be deadlocked with the NC only forced to redeploy because the Vanu have used the stalemate as an opportunity to take your shit on the other shore of a Continent...

No argument again. I think that Hossin, Seahurse, and Oshur, coupled with battle islands and a continental lattice stringing it all together is the perfect solution to this... just a matter of all of that materializing.

Whiteagle · 2013-05-28, 04:10 PM

Originally Posted by GeoGnome

I wrote one out at length here

That was what I thought would work using pipelines and ants and whatnot.

I will try to read and respond to it when I'm done.

Originally Posted by GeoGnome

So do you mean it was openning up a front on a continent? That could be interesting, but it would require a continental lattice to work properly... and likely some kind of foothold points to launch out from, independent of the warpgates. Could be cool though.

Well it didn't have to be successful, more often then not you were pulling a False Flag Operation to draw the enemies attention away from another Front.

Plus in the Original Planetside each Faction had a "Sanctuary," a special Continent only they could access, which was eventually permanently connected to two "Home" Continents through two Warpgates.
Capturing both of those gave your Faction the ability to Spawn their Faction Specific Vehicles, which is something I could see making Cross-factional Equivalent Unlocks more palpable, not to mention the return of Vehicle Hacking...

Originally Posted by GeoGnome

This honestly worries me. If resources are located too close to a base, you might have a zerg trying to deal with resource captures. I hope you are right though.

Well these Valves wouldn't be the only source of Resources, just a means of controlling the flow and allowing people to gain a few extra for their Faction if they happen to be around to collect during the five minute tick.

They'd also not be Outpost, just Maintenance Access Nodes in the middle of long stretches of Pipeline, so you'd be out in the open without much protection from Air or Armor.

Originally Posted by GeoGnome

...Do I get a cookie?

No, you get to stare down a ScatMAX with only an SMG, a Pistol, and your Pajamas!

Originally Posted by GeoGnome

No argument here, but I see this as being rather far off, like post continental lattice far off. That isn't to say I don't think it is likely... I do, just think this is something in the 5 year plan, not the 5 month plan (Thus, something I'm not ready to invest a lot of time into mulling over).

Well I don't know honestly...
There are only two real technical issues, transferring Vehicles and Infantry from one map to the other and the Ocean's 'water' mechanics itself.

The former they need to address with Warpgates anyways, leaving the latter the only real obstacle...

Rat · 2013-05-28, 08:09 PM

Originally Posted by Qwan

I think Im understand what needs to be done here. They should bring back the gen but make it more valuble, say for instance if the gen at a tech plant goes down and its the only tech connected through the lattice system then the lightning and MBT are taken away from the spawn options untill that gen is up, this should also go for Gal's and libs. I mean if you have the lattice system there has to be a way to break the stalemate, and by taking out the tech gen you can deprive the enemy of there ability to spawn tanks and air. Example would be the fights that happened this weekend between peris amp station and regent rock garrison (woodman) the fights were intense and heavy and movement was stalled due to balanced forces. Now lets say that if the gen was blown at Tawrich by a small team pushing from peris. This would deprive the team fighting out of regent rock of lightning and MBT. Giving the team pushing from Peris amp the advantage. Not necessarily a hack but just taking out the gen gave there team that slite edge for about 10 to 15 minutes. Lets say a well put together team blew that gen and was holding it down, keeping it from being repaired. This to me will help some of those black opps teams out there feel employed again. We can do the same for the amp stations and the bio labs, we have to give them a benifit that actually can be felt when that gen goes down. As of now they do give benifits but no one really pays much attention to them, they seem almost passive. The bio lab gives faster natural regen right, well up that a little make it more intence. Enough so that if that gen gets blown at the bio lab players on the main battle front will feel it and know that "Hey we gotta go back to that Lab and get that damn gen up". As of right now big bases in PS2 are just that big outposts, and the only one that really has a meaning is the tech plant, and even then all you have to do is go back to the warp gate to get that MBT or Gal.

I really hate to say it, but I gotta agree with the purple spandex wearing alien lover here, this is what is needed.

CrankyTRex · 2013-05-28, 09:21 PM

One thing I'd like to see is a way to create a link between two parallel lanes, if only temporarily. I suppose it could be a function of a Sundy or a Gal to set up a destructible gen or something of that sort between points that could potentially allow for a sudden flanking op. It'd be a good way to break stalemates, and would give something for small forces to do.

I'm guessing some of the stuff you guys are talking about from PS1 kind of covers that already?

jboy · 2013-05-28, 09:25 PM

Originally Posted by Galron

How many people are defending the base when you ghost cap and back hack? Here is a hint, 0. You WANT this to be zero or you wouldn't even do it.

What a load of crap! i used to Gal Drop myself into a base, hack everything and blow all generators then hold up in the base and wait for the zerg to catch up. While i was waiting I would harass the enemy as much as possible from inside the base. This would pull players away from the main battle, sometimes it may be just one or two players V's me...at best it would take a full squad to finally get me. This is a legit tactic...and you deserve the xp because it can take a lot of time and waiting.
You will always get more xp in the main battles...this was more just fun annoying people, and gave me a nice change when I got sick of working in groups.

ringring · 2013-05-29, 08:44 AM

Originally Posted by Whiteagle

...But you do reailse that Generators in the Original Planetside had 1000 more armor points then a Lightning, took SIXTY rockets to bring down, were constantly auto-repaired by the NTU, AND could be protected by a Pain Field, right?

These were not easy strategic targets to bring down man...
...

What!!!!

Sixty!

6 boomers - just had that convo with Figgy a couple of days ago.

Not many strikers would do it, I can't recall exactly but in the ball park of 15. A couple of guys or a pounder max could kill and gen in seconds.

I'll go and test.

Edit: yeaa and excuse to log into ps1 .... anyways I don't know what the point was anymore but it took 24 striker rounds to kill and full health gen. My standard HA loadout carried 20. If it took that many striker ournds it would take fewer phoenix rounds.

Whiteagle · 2013-05-29, 11:49 AM

Originally Posted by ringring

What!!!!

Sixty!

6 boomers - just had that convo with Figgy a couple of days ago.

Not many strikers would do it, I can't recall exactly but in the ball park of 15. A couple of guys or a pounder max could kill and gen in seconds.

I'll go and test.

Edit: yeaa and excuse to log into ps1 .... anyways I don't know what the point was anymore but it took 24 striker rounds to kill and full health gen. My standard HA loadout carried 20. If it took that many striker ournds it would take fewer phoenix rounds.

Well I was talking about the Punisher and Rocklet Rockets, those only do 50 damage apiece...
Striker does about 125 from the looks of it, and if it really does take six Boombers that would mean they each do 500...