Spec Ops and Generators

NewSith · 2013-05-28, 06:28 AM

I don't understand why people had no response...

Click and Go to 1:40:20

This is exactly what I mean by devs not understanding the "Spec Ops" term properly.

Whiteagle · 2013-05-28, 06:47 AM

Uh Sith, I have to ask what YOU want out of Spec Ops...

...Because that was exactly the type of thing I would add, small strategic objectives that give an advantage to one side, but aren't as exploitable by increasing the scale as the current Capture Mechanics.

NewSith · 2013-05-28, 06:55 AM

Spec Ops need to be strategical, not tactical. If Spec Ops are turned tactical than:

a) They turn into Shocktroops.
b) Any "tactical objective" can and will be zerged. It's almost as if you never seen what happens with AMP or Tech vertical and horizontal gens during a more a less large fight.

What I propose by specops is being a group that generally backhacks. Genholds are also part of the job, but we don't have good enough benefits for Genholds to have any value.

Whiteagle · 2013-05-28, 07:04 AM

Originally Posted by NewSith

What I propose by specops is being a group that generally backhacks. Genholds are also part of the job, but we don't have good enough benefits for Genholds to have any value.

Backhacks I can understand, but we are going to need more complex Capture Mechanics then "Everyone stand around this glowing Console!"

I personally have an idea to bring back NTU-style Logistics by revamping Resources into an Individual BASE asset instead of a player one, which also includes strategic drains and a Lattice-based Pipeline system with the ability to cut-off Resource flow.
Thus, "A generator that you can blow up to cut off a link" is technically one of the things that would fall under this, as well as Vampire ANTs sucking out a Base's Resource Silos and neutralizing it for Capture.

Qwan · 2013-05-28, 07:29 AM

I think Im understand what needs to be done here. They should bring back the gen but make it more valuble, say for instance if the gen at a tech plant goes down and its the only tech connected through the lattice system then the lightning and MBT are taken away from the spawn options untill that gen is up, this should also go for Gal's and libs. I mean if you have the lattice system there has to be a way to break the stalemate, and by taking out the tech gen you can deprive the enemy of there ability to spawn tanks and air. Example would be the fights that happened this weekend between peris amp station and regent rock garrison (woodman) the fights were intense and heavy and movement was stalled due to balanced forces. Now lets say that if the gen was blown at Tawrich by a small team pushing from peris. This would deprive the team fighting out of regent rock of lightning and MBT. Giving the team pushing from Peris amp the advantage. Not necessarily a hack but just taking out the gen gave there team that slite edge for about 10 to 15 minutes. Lets say a well put together team blew that gen and was holding it down, keeping it from being repaired. This to me will help some of those black opps teams out there feel employed again. We can do the same for the amp stations and the bio labs, we have to give them a benifit that actually can be felt when that gen goes down. As of now they do give benifits but no one really pays much attention to them, they seem almost passive. The bio lab gives faster natural regen right, well up that a little make it more intence. Enough so that if that gen gets blown at the bio lab players on the main battle front will feel it and know that "Hey we gotta go back to that Lab and get that damn gen up". As of right now big bases in PS2 are just that big outposts, and the only one that really has a meaning is the tech plant, and even then all you have to do is go back to the warp gate to get that MBT or Gal.

Qwan · 2013-05-28, 07:55 AM

Originally Posted by Whiteagle

Backhacks I can understand, but we are going to need more complex Capture Mechanics then "Everyone stand around this glowing Console!"

I personally have an idea to bring back NTU-style Logistics by revamping Resources into an Individual BASE asset instead of a player one, which also includes strategic drains and a Lattice-based Pipeline system with the ability to cut-off Resource flow.
Thus, "A generator that you can blow up to cut off a link" is technically one of the things that would fall under this, as well as Vampire ANTs sucking out a Base's Resource Silos and neutralizing it for Capture.

I dont know eagle if the NTU, or base draining can be added into this game at this point. Most bases unlike the older one's dont auto repair, and for them to go in and apply most of the nanite silo, and other systems would call for a complete overhaul. So I have this suggestions, a pre hack set up, lets say that the zerg is moving along the lattice, black opps teams can move to the next base and pre hack the systems.
What prehack does:
1. Slows down respawn time (but doesnt take out SCU completely)
2. Takes away turret cool down (gun turrets over heat faster)
3. Slows down tunnel movement system.(were applicable)
4. Cuts capture time in half ( if base is prehacked, instead of 10 minute hack just takes 5).

Black opps units can go into bases and blow vehicle shield gens, and main shield gens. Start a hack which only counts down to lets say half or less than half, then stops until a link is established, prepping the base for the zerg. This way they can roll in and continue the hack and secure the facility. But if the faction manages to resecure the facility then all bets are off, respawn, tunnels and turrets go back to normal. And that black opps team has failed there mission.

Whiteagle · 2013-05-28, 08:10 AM

Originally Posted by Qwan

I dont know eagle if the NTU, or base draining can be added into this game at this point. Most bases unlike the older one's dont auto repair, and for them to go in and apply most of the nanite silo, and other systems would call for a complete overhaul.

I doubt auto repair would be hard to code...

The biggest issue is switching Resources from something tracked for the individual player to something tracked for individual Bases, but I doubt it will be THAT large of a problem if the Original Planetside was able to tie NTU to player Spawns.
Mostly its how the change itself would effect the individual play and cash shop benefits.

Originally Posted by Qwan

So I have this suggestions, a pre hack set up, lets say that the zerg is moving along the lattice, black opps teams can move to the next base and pre hack the systems.
What prehack does:
1. Slows down respawn time (but doesnt take out SCU completely)
2. Takes away turret cool down (gun turrets over heat faster)
3. Slows down tunnel movement system.(were applicable)
4. Cuts capture time in half ( if base is prehacked, instead of 10 minute hack just takes 5).

Black opps units can go into bases and blow vehicle shield gens, and main shield gens. Start a hack which only counts down to lets say half or less than half, then stops until a link is established, prepping the base for the zerg. This way they can roll in and continue the hack and secure the facility.

Yeah this is bad idea...

Most of your suggestions would cheapen a fight nearly as bad as Ghost popping SCUs, while it's fairly easy for Spec Ops to unbalance an enemy Zerg if they know what to do right now.

"Prehacking" pretty much entails destroying or hacking everything at a Base before the Zerg get there...

New Sith has stated he wants the ability to Backhack, but that would require additional steps be added so that Backhacking was a viable small scale strategy that's not exploitable by increasing numbers.

ringring · 2013-05-28, 08:19 AM

Well the ideas they threw out did seem half-baked.

I also don't see any linkage between adding the lattice removes spec ops, there weren't that many opportunities for spec ops in any case and I see no change.

The issue is simple:
- the change they've just put in to link gen destruction to adjacency was wrong, reverse it. The issue is meant to address was people faming xp by going behind the lines, wrecking base and dicking off again. They should have addressed the incentive that is present and removed it by simply reducing towards zero the xp award for destruction.
- reverse the link of SCU destruction to a hack timer. Generators should be destructible by players.
- they next have to link the destruction of gens and ideally the SCU gen to something important that has impact continent-wide. Traditionally this meant removal of base benefits, but currently they are not strong enough. The DEVS know this and a revamp is on the agenda I believe and if not it should be. I've suggested previous ant Bio and Amp should give a health and armour buff respectfully, that would be enough to both incentivise benefit removal via spec ops and to generate a response and therefore a fight of some kind.

Other options for spec ops are to make resecure hack more rapid than capture hacks - that would buff resecure teams a lot.

Id also try to think about tactics to counter a possible spec ops raids, to include CE buffs, and binds to both bases and amses.

ringring · 2013-05-28, 08:29 AM

Originally Posted by Whiteagle

Most of your suggestions would cheapen a fight nearly as bad as Ghost popping SCUs, while it's fairly easy for Spec Ops to unbalance an enemy Zerg if they know what to do right now.

"Prehacking" pretty much entails destroying or hacking everything at a Base before the Zerg get there...

New Sith has stated he wants the ability to Backhack, but that would require additional steps be added so that Backhacking was a viable small scale strategy that's not exploitable by increasing numbers.

Ghost popping gens was only done for cheap xp. What happens now is that the same people go to the same bases and destroy all the turrets for cheap xp, the only difference is that the don't need to bother with the gens, there plenty xp to be had on the turrets alone.

To Newsith's point; being able to back hack to me runs counter to the lattice as we can have it at present.

It sort of implies the re-introduction of a caves system of additional links that switch of rotate depending on several factors.

I mean hackable links to behind the lines bases are sometimes present and players can either predict when or can create them and then take advantage. Of course the mechanism would need to include a counter-measure.

I loved the caves themselves in ps1 and I also loved the additional strategic options that they gave so if they came back in a similar form I'd be all in favour.

Battle islands!!!! I've just remembered, the devs are creating battle islands for MLG and they want to stitch them into the Auraxis game-world. These battle islands could be the caves of PS2!

Galron · 2013-05-28, 09:04 AM

You want backhacking aka ghostcapping? GTFO. Spec ops is fine at the moment, you just no longer get some flashing screen award for it. You need to use your brain if you want spec ops. I'm no genius but here are a few things you can do right now if you wanted.

AA max warpgate camp, harasser wolfpack, gal drop minelayers. You are limited only by your imagination, and it looks like yours didn't get you very far here.

Logistics a la NTU drains or fills are a separate issue and for the record is like to see something like that for ps2.

NewSith · 2013-05-28, 09:31 AM

Originally Posted by Galron

You want backhacking aka ghostcapping? GTFO. Spec ops is fine at the moment, you just no longer get some flashing screen award for it. You need to use your brain if you want spec ops. I'm no genius but here are a few things you can do right now if you wanted.

AA max warpgate camp, harasser wolfpack, gal drop minelayers. You are limited only by your imagination, and it looks like yours didn't get you very far here.

Logistics a la NTU drains or fills are a separate issue and for the record is like to see something like that for ps2.

Go play PS1 if you think ghosthacking and backhacking are same terms.

ringring · 2013-05-28, 09:31 AM

Originally Posted by Galron

You want backhacking aka ghostcapping? GTFO. Spec ops is fine at the moment, you just no longer get some flashing screen award for it. You need to use your brain if you want spec ops. I'm no genius but here are a few things you can do right now if you wanted.

AA max warpgate camp, harasser wolfpack, gal drop minelayers. You are limited only by your imagination, and it looks like yours didn't get you very far here.

Logistics a la NTU drains or fills are a separate issue and for the record is like to see something like that for ps2.

Backhacking is not ghost capping. Back hacking is a determined effort to change the strategic outlook by capturing a base and it mean hacking and defending the hack.

Besides, there's nothing wrong with ghost capping, it can just get a little tiresome at times. It all depends how prevalent it becomes. Too much is bad, a little is tolerable.

Galron · 2013-05-28, 09:38 AM

How many people are defending the base when you ghost cap and back hack? Here is a hint, 0. You WANT this to be zero or you wouldn't even do it.

CraazyCanuck · 2013-05-28, 09:40 AM

Never played ps1, though I wish I had, but what was the function of these tunnels you are referring to?

Were they underground infantry bridge points between lattice routes or a whole separate network on to themselves?

NewSith · 2013-05-28, 09:44 AM

Originally Posted by Galron

How many people are defending the base when you ghost cap and back hack? Here is a hint, 0. You WANT this to be zero or you wouldn't even do it.

So, you basically want to implement a system where you can only hack a hex when there are enemies on it, yeah?

So we all sit in our wargates and wait for territories to capture themselves?

You zeal is unwanted and unnecessary.