100's of Certs - Page 2

HellsPanda · 2012-05-05, 02:21 AM

As I understood it, and its possibly wrong. You earn cert points within a given class, and you can distribute that freely within that tree.

Noivad · 2012-05-05, 03:16 AM

Originally Posted by Badjuju

You are aware the the TR are the bad guys in this story right? Laser beams are only inherently evil when combined with animals, such as sharks.

Bad Guys - WTF - Did you NOT read the back Stories. The NC have all the Corporation Big Shots that want to stuff their own pockets full of Money. They want the liberal rebels to run amock believing that they are entitled to every thing the Empire has without working or paying for it. And the Vs - lol those snobs of Science. Instead of using technology to help the poor citzens of Auraxis they instead strive to use Alien weapons against all of us.

Yes bad guys you call the TR, The ones who fight for the people. Who give them Rules, Law and Order. The ones whose goal is to protect the people from the lawless NC and the high society VS

It has always been the Military that has given its citzens of Auraxis their Freedoms. The TR Military are organizeed, there is order, citzens know what they can and cannot do. and they can pretty much do anything they like.

They are not cheated like the VS and NC peoples.

TR for Life - Victory is ours!!!!!

MonsterBone · 2012-05-05, 11:23 AM

In the VS case its technology they shouldn't be messing with. In the Kardashians case its the Denver Nuggets.

Mechzz · 2012-05-05, 11:27 AM

Originally Posted by MonsterBone

In the VS case its technology they shouldn't be messing with. In the Kardashians case its the Denver Nuggets.

The only "nuggets" the VS need to deal with are the Smurfs and the Elmos. Once we get the balance right on the new Lasher, we will be unstoppable.

(Cultural translation: In Scotland, a "nugget" is an annoying, lame person, which sums up the TR and NC nicely)

Graywolves · 2012-05-05, 01:13 PM

Originally Posted by Mechzz

The only "nuggets" the VS need to deal with are the Smurfs and the Elmos. Once we get the balance right on the new Lasher, we will be unstoppable.

(Cultural translation: In Scotland, a "nugget" is an annoying, lame person, which sums up the TR and NC nicely)

I've never seen a red and black nugget.

BorisBlade · 2012-05-05, 02:04 PM

Unless im missing something you dont actually "specialize". Where one guy is spec'd out for some certain kind of cloaker while unable to play the other versions without goin back for a recert or whatever.

You unlock things and you have it forever, they call it certs, but its just unlocking. There is no limit like actual cert trees have. You can "cert" every single thing in the game at the same time once you spend enough tme playin to unlock it. You literally have it all, there is no specialization in that at all.

The only actual specialization is what you have for your loadout in that specific lifespan, or since you last hit up an equipment terminal. Its like saying you are specialized into blue crayons, but giving you an entire box of 100 colors. Yeah you can only use one at a time, but you can instantly go and switch to another and make a colorful drawing, its not actual specialization. Its fake, cosmetic specialization.

Having said that, they seem to still have it in a bit of flux. I'm hoping they still do the unlock part like they want, but also add real certs on top of that. So you unlock the ability to use the certs (its greyed out til unlocked), but then have a LIMITED number of certs to spend to pick and chose from those things you have unlocked so you can activate those certs. Something that has to be reset, on a timer, for a cost. For example, there are 25 certs in a tree, but you can only get 10 or 15(arbitrary numbers), currently you can get all 25. That way you actually do specialize. In a game where they focus so much on customizing things, not being able to actually specialize and just getting a cosmetic version of it is really lame.

Immigrant · 2012-05-05, 02:42 PM

Originally Posted by BorisBlade

Unless im missing something you dont actually "specialize". Where one guy is spec'd out for some certain kind of cloaker while unable to play the other versions without goin back for a recert or whatever.

You unlock things and you have it forever, they call it certs, but its just unlocking. There is no limit like actual cert trees have. You can "cert" every single thing in the game at the same time once you spend enough tme playin to unlock it. You literally have it all, there is no specialization in that at all.

The only actual specialization is what you have for your loadout in that specific lifespan, or since you last hit up an equipment terminal. Its like saying you are specialized into blue crayons, but giving you an entire box of 100 colors. Yeah you can only use one at a time, but you can instantly go and switch to another and make a colorful drawing, its not actual specialization. Its fake, cosmetic specialization.

Having said that, they seem to still have it in a bit of flux. I'm hoping they still do the unlock part like they want, but also add real certs on top of that. So you unlock the ability to use the certs (its greyed out til unlocked), but then have a LIMITED number of certs to spend to pick and chose from those things you have unlocked so you can activate those certs. Something that has to be reset, on a timer, for a cost. For example, there are 25 certs in a tree, but you can only get 10 or 15(arbitrary numbers), currently you can get all 25. That way you actually do specialize. In a game where they focus so much on customizing things, not being able to actually specialize and just getting a cosmetic version of it is really lame.

I think you're missing the point. Most people will specialize in practice. Especially in the beginning. To unlock advanced option for i.e. tank driving you'll have to unlock the basic ones first so a dedicated tank driver will first unlock tank related certs. Also they said it will take a year or more to unlock them all and that still doesn't imply you'll max them out straight away since basically your certs will bet getter the more you use them (so to get everything maxed up it'll take years if ever possible). Also I doubt they won't add more certs as times goes by. Locking you out from certain cert options permanently for making a choice two or three months ago would suck imho. I like the current scheme, and the way dev team reasons on this matter.

Kipper · 2012-05-05, 03:17 PM

In MMORPG it makes sense to have to take a character down a certain path and make choices, as annoying as it is to have to have multiple toons to try all aspects of gameplay, current RPGs are about hotbars and cooldown timers and learning when to click skills, so you need the mechanism to stop some demon fighter-wizard with healing skills from owning everything in sight.

In MMOFPS, your actual skill and levels of practice translate much more directly into the game - you specialise by practicing, you get better at flying a galaxy by spending time flying a galaxy and learning what works and what doesn't. It makes sense to me that you can unlock further options in a class/vehicle by spending time using that class/vehicle. If you have all certs on aircraft, that won't help you if you choose to drive a tank for a bit - so you aren't able to use all certs at all times, only relevant ones.

You can be equal in-game with another player, and actual skill will determine who comes out on top.

NCLynx · 2012-05-05, 04:13 PM

Can't wait. This means that we won't stop having progression on our characters for quite some time!

Gonefshn · 2012-05-05, 04:24 PM

Originally Posted by elfailo

Hundreds probably means every individual talent point. It's likely that most talents require numerous points to max out, as opposed to hundreds of individual talents that all drastically change or add functionality. For example, increased armor talent for the heavy class may add 2% armor with every point you spend, for a total of 10%. It's just a seemingly big number they use to impress people.

I don't think there will be straight percent upgrades like 2% more damage on rifles etc included. I think it's mostly unlocking options and additional equipment.

Duddy · 2012-05-05, 05:00 PM

Originally Posted by Kipper

It makes sense to me that you can unlock further options in a class/vehicle by spending time using that class/vehicle. If you have all certs on aircraft, that won't help you if you choose to drive a tank for a bit - so you aren't able to use all certs at all times, only relevant ones.

Given the latter, why does the former make sense?

Rather: why should you need to play a singular role to progress your character?

Lets use PS1 as an example, if you had told people in PS1 that to unlock certs for say the MBTs you had to spend time only being to use the lightning then they'd of probably of told you to do one.

In BF3 there was the issue that new pilots were less able to progress with their air unlocks because more experienced pilots had access to tools they needed to be successful whilst new players didn't.

To even speculate for PS2, what if the role you want to play is not as readily viable/available? Vehicles and (potentially) MAXes will cost resources, meaning they can't always be used; likewise infantry isn't always useful outdoors.

I believe, and sincerely hope, that training of certs will be a "any role, any time" approach; if it isn't then you will have players frustrated that their game time does not always contribute to how they wish to play.

Kipper · 2012-05-05, 06:04 PM

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying.

If you have a skill, it makes sense that the way you get better at it is to practice it. Stuff you know about it becomes easier (thats the 'you' part), and in addition, you acquire new knowledge about it that before you started, you didn't dream of (thats the 'cert' part).

Real life example - a few years ago I decided to try and learn to play the guitar, from zero knowledge - I learnt a couple of chord shapes from a beginner book to start me off. I had something that other complete guitar noobs didn't have, but was easy to get. With practice, using the new knowledge became more natural, and with experience I "unlocked" new chords that would have been impossible at first, but now they weren't. The further I go, the more natural I get with knowledge I gain, and I 'unlock' new guitar skills as I go. So by your analagy, should I now be able to play the drums?

For PS2, the role you want to play will almost always be viable - you just have to find a place to make it work for you. If you want to be air support, go and find a battle in the open space, don't rock up at the indoor base fight and then complain that you can't use your flying skills.

If you exclusively want to play at being one single thing, then occasionally, you might be disappointed. Most people will play all of the roles but strongly favour two or three of them, so they'll always have something to fall back on, and will be rewarded more by being able to specialise more than someone who plays them all equally, both in their actual skill, and the equipment/skills available to them.

It just makes total sense to me. Why should you get all the aircraft unlocks without ever sitting in an aircraft?

New players to a role won't be farmed by players with lots of unlocks, its already been stated that the difference will not be unbalancing for the 5 min vs 5 year player; other than in your actual skill (which is transferable from other FPS). Newbies will kill oldbies just the same, oldbies will just have more options to really zone into how they want to play, rather than how much raw power they have. Speed at the cost of armour, and all that.

Raka Maru · 2012-05-05, 06:51 PM

From what I understand in this PS2 skill tree model, you get certs to spend as you wish, which will unlock side grades to let you be more diverse.

For example, playing anything at all will earn you certs. Certs can be used to "learn" new things or ways to do things. Consider it paying for a semester in college or tech school. You now have the cert and can play that role if you wish. If you spent cert points for that tree.

This is not like UO where you have to make 10k daggers to level your blacksmith skills.

Gonefshn · 2012-05-05, 07:52 PM

We have people saying they think it's both ways, I know I already said what I believe it to be. We need someone who actually knows for sure to speak up lol.

Duddy · 2012-05-05, 08:24 PM

Originally Posted by Kipper

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying.

Sorry, perhaps I wasn't clear.

To start, please don't pull the real life example here. I think we're all aware that a skill, in real life, requires practice to acquire.

However, we're not talking about it as a RL skill, we're talking about a cert point which is earned over time (by time itself or accelerated by XP) for doing any in-game activity. Hence why I hesitate to use the word skill, because a cert isn't a "skill" its merely an upgrade, a boost or perhaps in some cases an activated ability. "Skill" is something the player themselves develop, much like any RL skill.

So unless you're then going to have additional systems to regulate what EXP and what time counts towards what role it doesn't make practical sense to only earn certs for the role you're currently playing.

As for the viable part, sure you can argue to go to where your play style is viable but I'd consider that naive. There's not always going to be a fight elsewhere, nor always the option to leave, and even if there is it may be one again your "chosen" role isn't good for.

That is from a technical perspective, but now from an entirely subjective view:

Having to play each role, exclusively, in order to attain the certs (not "skills") to play the role seems wrong to me. The Battlefield series class unlock system is an example of something I don't agree with.

Sure, technically speaking it makes sense, but I'm willing to wager a lot of people actually found it to be a hindrance. How many people honestly can admit to enjoying playing through each class one by one to unlock everything? I know I didn't, I've even seen Higby say on twitter something along the lines of "Assault done, now to unlock Recon, ughh" (I am of course paraphrasing, I tried to find the exact tweet, but there are so many :/).

I suppose the two big questions that need to be asked are:
- What benefit does restricting the certs you earn to the role you were playing have over allowing any certs to be spent on any role?
- Given the previous, does that create more "fun" (or reduce more loss of "fun") over the alternative?

To which I'd have to say, little and nope.

Hope that clarifies!