Some random thoughts on air combat in PS2

[Virulence]

I'd favor a squadron of Reavers in a large furball - you'll probably be able to make use of your heavier weaponry since you shouldn't have trouble picking a target, and being able to take more punishment means your wingmen have a better opportunity to shoot the guy shooting you; in those situations, it's always better to shoot the guy shooting your wingman than it is to shoot the guy that's trying to shoot you.

[Pepsi]

Best strategy for a pair of Reavers:
<3 Thach Weave

[Bobby Shaftoe]

Originally Posted by Vexus

the Mosquito, seems to top out just over 400.

Seen it pushing 465 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptGe-...tailpage#t=33s

[MrMorton]

Originally Posted by Pepsi

Best strategy for a pair of Reavers:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qsdIB3mMYc
<3 Thach Weave

while the thatch weave works great in real life flying tactics, it simply won't be that practical in ps2

the reason for this is that if I am in a scythe, it is perfectly possible for me to attack one reaver, the maneuver completely out of the flight path of the second reaver, and the drop back down on the first with no trouble.

the thatch weave is also not very good against energy fighters, as the mosquito can simply time his attacks when the two reavers are unable to cover each other and then extend away.

maneuvers like that are intended for a match up between two turn'n'burners, which simply is not going to happen in ps2 (unless you got two slow, maneuverability certed mosquitos vs two speed modded reavers :P)

[Pepsi]

Originally Posted by MrMorton

while the thatch weave works great in real life flying tactics, it simply won't be that practical in ps2

the reason for this is that if I am in a scythe, it is perfectly possible for me to attack one reaver, the maneuver completely out of the flight path of the second reaver, and the drop back down on the first with no trouble.

the thatch weave is also not very good against energy fighters, as the mosquito can simply time his attacks when the two reavers are unable to cover each other and then extend away.

maneuvers like that are intended for a match up between two turn'n'burners, which simply is not going to happen in ps2 (unless you got two slow, maneuverability certed mosquitos vs two speed modded reavers :P)

Hmm, I suppose that strategy hasn't been tested against UFO's.

But wasn't the Thach Weave developed not only to combat the Zero's superior maneuverability, but its speed as well? I thought it seemed like a good strategy against the faster Mosquito, perhaps something just doesn't translate well into video game world.

[MrMorton]

Originally Posted by Pepsi

Hmm, I suppose that strategy hasn't been tested against UFO's.

But wasn't the Thach Weave developed not only to combat the Zero's superior maneuverability, but its speed as well? I thought it seemed like a good strategy against the faster Mosquito, perhaps something just doesn't translate well into video game world.

halfway true, the zero was faster in level flight but in real life that maneuver is performed in a shallow dive, because the Cats were better in a dive than the zero, so the maneuver was more to deter the zero from pursuing (unless the pilot was not thinking) and allow them to escape (as the cat was absolutely terrible against the zero in a fight).

in ps2 the mosquito will ALWAYS be faster than the other faction's aircraft.


if you are looking for some NC tactics with 2v1's, here is what I would suggest.

you see the mosquito coming, and contrary to what you would normally do, you turn to run away from it ( TR's will and he will chase you). make a long shallow loop, simply tanking the damage, around as your wingman positions himself to intercept your flightpath. The wingman goes into hover mode as you fly past him and he gets easy shots onto the TR, if the high damage of NC is what its touted to be, you will be able to take out the mosquito.

[Pepsi]

Originally Posted by MrMorton

make a long shallow loop, simply tanking the damage, around as your wingman positions himself to intercept your flightpath. The wingman goes into hover mode as you fly past him and he gets easy shots onto the TR, if the high damage of NC is what its touted to be, you will be able to take out the mosquito.

I'm always a fan of these elaborate dogfighting techniques, but I guess PS2's arcadey-ness crushes that. Because altitude barely matters flying behind your wingman at a higher altitude isn't effective. I do feel for the Reavers, and even your idea involves putting a Reaver in a dangerous position.

The only defense I see the Reavers having is to fly in numbers, like what you mentioned with the Mosquitos. If a Mosquito or Scythe gets on a Reaver's tail, a Reaver wingman should be able to shoot that enemy down before they destroy the Reaver (just applying your idea en masse). So I guess, when in doubt, zerg 'em.

[Satexios]

Most people look at their sides and the ground, so they won't notice my little skeeter coming in from above and taking them out.

I am sure the same tactics will apply as they worked in WWII Online with the German planes, they couldn't turn as much as the allied ones so strafe down and take them out.

Can't wait for beta to test it

[MrMorton]

Originally Posted by Pepsi

I'm always a fan of these elaborate dogfighting techniques, but I guess PS2's arcadey-ness crushes that. Because altitude barely matters flying behind your wingman at a higher altitude isn't effective. I do feel for the Reavers, and even your idea involves putting a Reaver in a dangerous position.

The only defense I see the Reavers having is to fly in numbers, like what you mentioned with the Mosquitos. If a Mosquito or Scythe gets on a Reaver's tail, a Reaver wingman should be able to shoot that enemy down before they destroy the Reaver (just applying your idea en masse). So I guess, when in doubt, zerg 'em.

yea the flight model, as far as I can tell, is extremely basic and isn't really conductive of more advanced maneuvers. Not to say that is bad necessarily, as the sci-fi feel fits with weird flight characteristics (as opposed to a game like bf3 which should have a decent flight model but doesn't)

On more idea with reavers is if you just cert for high armour and damage(I am more of a fan of expounding on your strengths than trying to make up for your weaknesses), you simply may be able to largely ignore the other aircraft and fly en masse to your objectives. Dogfights in planetside2 won't be fought without a purpose, and the reaver may be able to destroy that galaxy squadron, take out those approaching tanks, or attack enemy ground troops even if the NC does not have air superiority.

So the reaver might be better suited for attacking roles, while a bread and butter dogfighter like the scythe will have the most effective escort and defensive role.

[Hmr85]

Most ppl hung out around the ceiling is PS1 to neutralize the ability to dive in from above on them and to get the hell away from the AA which will be overwhelming when you have 1000 players below fighting it out.. I would'nt be suprised to see it again. It in a way forces you to fight them straight up yet still gives me the ability to see what hell is going on below. I also agree reaver pilots will need to roam with a buddy.

[ParisTeta]

The Rocket Speed Problem. Rockets are already pretty slow, a Mossi would have no problem to get away from a missle shoot from a reaver or scyth, also the mossie has less problem getting near enough to reliable shoot one while the rest well have to invent something liek afterburn bursts or suprise attacks.

In a large scale air battle, the mossie would proably be the best bet on the winner, fast, can get in the shots, get out, making it "durable" not in damage soaked but Time to Life and making alot of small Time in Combat.

Since the primary goal of these air unit is foremost air superiority, the Mossi is the best for that kind of Job. Reaver and Scyth maybe more like dive bombers to support ground attacks instead, while Scyth more hit n run and the reaver can soak some more punishment, maybe unloading to clips instead of one (furhter reinforce the damage aspect). Still these both are at disadvantge, can tactic compensate for this?


The Idea behind the Thach Wave may be valid, aka if you wanna shot my buddy i`m able to get a shoot on you, but Mossie will have there tricks of trade too, lag rolls etc. to keep there speed (they don`t lose any) and staying behind someone and also evading some of the targets buddy.

Solo defensive maneuvering will proably be bread and butter tactics for any scyth.

Reaver, like scyth just less agile.

I fear an air combat which is pretty stagnant, no one can really do anything, is that a good thing?

Or will Scyth/Reaver/Libs mow down ground units while TR Mossies try to hit n run on all those Air units feeling ineffective (WWIIO Feeling).

And lastly, it`s alpha, skills on the battlefield are usually diverse (problem in WWIIO AIr combat, it usally isn`t anymore, mostly very good player), number inbalance i just fear for the scyth that the strength will be reduced, not compensated and will become a charataristic which really dosn`t help much, a fate alot of Vanu Stuff suffers.

Someone should say to the Dev "The First Rule of design Vanu Stuff is, it should be usable and has it Strength in its PRIMARY FUNCTION and include everything which gives it its advantage (hello Magrider without turret..) THAN add fun stuff like strafing more agility or whatever.

Fix Idea: Make all three Air Vehicle mostly the same stats except, you can use he special ability to Improve your Speed (mossi) Agility (scyth) and punch/armor (Reaver). For a short time. Make it advancable with certs to get closer to other or enhance your primary special ability.

[Hmr85]

Fear the AA because no game will be able simulate the shear amout of it going up that you see in this game when you have almost the entire pop of a continent in one area. Aircraft will be resorted to doing hit and runs on the outskirts and protecting supply lines. The middle of the battle will pretty much be a no mans land. This is also where I figure the reaver will shine.

[Duddy]

Some interesting considerations, for sure, but I think it a little early to be calling the Reaver the weakest.

If anything has ever been proven to be true about gaming communities is that they will be able to utilise tools available to them despite what might be apparent or intent.

In short, this is quite speculative and the reality could be entirely different.

[Landtank]

Originally Posted by Lonehunter

The Reaver I'm just not worried about

Can't wait to absolutely annihilate you over the skies of Auraxis in my Reaver

Don't underestimate the Reaver, if you ever make even a single mistake and the Reaver pilot is outfitted for air to air combat, then you are dead.

The Scythe and Mosquito lack the durability to take more than a few hits, even from the machine gun of the Reaver.

I also love the Reaver's obvious ability to dominate the other two in terms air to ground conflicts.

[MrMorton]

Originally Posted by ParisTeta

The Rocket Speed Problem. Rockets are already pretty slow, a Mossi would have no problem to get away from a missle shoot from a reaver or scyth, also the mossie has less problem getting near enough to reliable shoot one while the rest well have to invent something liek afterburn bursts or suprise attacks.

In a large scale air battle, the mossie would proably be the best bet on the winner, fast, can get in the shots, get out, making it "durable" not in damage soaked but Time to Life and making alot of small Time in Combat.

Since the primary goal of these air unit is foremost air superiority, the Mossi is the best for that kind of Job. Reaver and Scyth maybe more like dive bombers to support ground attacks instead, while Scyth more hit n run and the reaver can soak some more punishment, maybe unloading to clips instead of one (furhter reinforce the damage aspect). Still these both are at disadvantge, can tactic compensate for this?


The Idea behind the Thach Wave may be valid, aka if you wanna shot my buddy i`m able to get a shoot on you, but Mossie will have there tricks of trade too, lag rolls etc. to keep there speed (they don`t lose any) and staying behind someone and also evading some of the targets buddy.

Solo defensive maneuvering will proably be bread and butter tactics for any scyth.

Reaver, like scyth just less agile.

I fear an air combat which is pretty stagnant, no one can really do anything, is that a good thing?

Or will Scyth/Reaver/Libs mow down ground units while TR Mossies try to hit n run on all those Air units feeling ineffective (WWIIO Feeling).

And lastly, it`s alpha, skills on the battlefield are usually diverse (problem in WWIIO AIr combat, it usally isn`t anymore, mostly very good player), number inbalance i just fear for the scyth that the strength will be reduced, not compensated and will become a charataristic which really dosn`t help much, a fate alot of Vanu Stuff suffers.

Someone should say to the Dev "The First Rule of design Vanu Stuff is, it should be usable and has it Strength in its PRIMARY FUNCTION and include everything which gives it its advantage (hello Magrider without turret..) THAN add fun stuff like strafing more agility or whatever.

Fix Idea: Make all three Air Vehicle mostly the same stats except, you can use he special ability to Improve your Speed (mossi) Agility (scyth) and punch/armor (Reaver). For a short time. Make it advancable with certs to get closer to other or enhance your primary special ability.

I would disagree that the mosquito will have commanding air superiority,

while it is true that the tr will have the longest lifespan in their aircraft, however because of the way they have to fly to survive, the actual time attacking the targets is decreased dramatically (in conventional flight sims, energy fighters spend 70% of their time maneuvering and only 20% of the time firing on the opponent)

the dynamic between the dogfighting aircraft (scythe) and the energy fighter (mossie) is fairly interesting, as the added mobility of the scythe will allow a skilled pilot to avoid the fire of the mossie while trading shots with it.

for instance, a skilled pilot in a scythe will be able to take on multiple opponents at once and possibly win (think fokker triplane from ww1), but conversely a less skilled pilot will get destroyed in a 2v1 or 2v2+ because of the easy flight tactics that really only rely on coordination between the tr pilots.

The air combat will not become static because the aircraft are VERY fragile (with the possible exception of the reaver) and your only defense without a lot of armor is evading fire.

personally I think the vs weapons have the highest skill cap, but the potential to be the best in the game once mastered.

ie:

no spread on vs firearms, meaning if you can control recoil you will destroy people a 15+ meters.

scythe is far more maneuverable than the other aircraft, and piloted well will survive a very long time

same with the magrider (on an open battlefield)