Some random thoughts on air combat in PS2

MrMorton · 2012-06-10, 12:42 AM

So, from watching the beta footage, I am starting to see the roles the aircraft are designed for, specifically regarding the fighters. Drawing comparisons from tactics used in more conventional flight sims, I would like to just theorycraft on the best use of these aircraft.

The Mosquito is shaping up to be the energy fighter of the game. Energy fighters are usually very survivable as they can run from most every fight. They should be used by starting far from the lines and at max altitude, and diving down on your target using wide sweeping maneuvers to attack your opponent and then immediately extend out of range.

In groups, the mosquito should rush down en masse, grouping and target firing and almost instantly killing multiple targets, then extending away before the opponent can retaliate. Then proceeding to rinse and repeat.

The scythe is the complete opposite, and is a little bit trickier to use against the mosquito, as tr will always have the speed advantage. The scythe is the turn'n'burner of ps2, being able to easily outmaneuver every other aircraft in the game. against anything but the mosquito, the scythe will just be able to chase down and outmaneuver them, however fighting an energy fighter requires special tactics (<3 whitera).

The best option should be to turn to face the approaching enemy (hopefully the scythes have seen them in advance) while not moving very much and using the vs's superior accuracy at range to whittle down the approaching mosquitos (targeting one ship at a time to take it down as fast as possible). Then just as the mosquito's get into their effective range, accelerate towards them and slightly at an angle, minimizing the firing time TR has on the VS. If the mosquitos make the mistake of breaking formation to dogfight, it should be easy to take them down.

The key to this match up is surprise, as an unprepared group of vs fighters will not be able to effectively counter the first sweep.

Now on to the reaver....sigh....As far as I can tell the reaver will be at a disadvantage to the other two races, not to say that it is underpowered, but in a 1v1 dogfight vs two pilots that are of equal skill, imo the reaver will always lose. This is because no matter how durable your aircraft is, once your opponent gets behind you, if you cannot shake him off he WILL eventually kill you (unless you have butt rockets or something).

that being said the reaver's best bet is to fly low and slow, making good use of its durability to soak up ground fire while taking out aggressors from the ground (antiground weapons will be a necessity). This will force the more fragile aircraft lower as well if they want to fight you, exposing them to NC ground fire. When fighting, the reaver will need to use vtol to get a good shot off on the other aircraft.

Against the scythe stay in vtol and attempt to stay with it and out dps the more fragile and weaker firing scythe.

Against the mosquito you should turn around before the mosquito passes you, and punch afterburner right as he overshooting in order to stay with him for as long as possible and get as many shots as possible into him. Hopefully the reaver will be able to turn with the mosquito so that if the mosquito panics and breaks, you should be able to keep up.

overall the reaver seems like it will be the hardest to survive in, but also have the best ability dominate air vs ground.

the vanu will be the dogfighter, but for balance purposes will probably be fairly fragile.

and the mosquito will be the hit and run fighter, rushing into a battle, and extending to the fringes to shake off chasers.

just some theorycrafting and general tactical concepts, what are your opinions?

Lonehunter · 2012-06-10, 01:19 AM

I've been thinking the exact same thing as some of those points.

As a TR pilot I can't stop thinking about being the fastest aircraft in the sky, and how to take on the Scythe. In TB's live stream I saw a lot of Skeeters going too fast and passing the target or getting too close to fire rockets. But the Scythe is so damn maneuverable, no matter how fast I am I think if I get too close they can just "turn'n burn" to get behind me, but again I can out run them.

In the end the Scythe will be the ultimate in hovering, it can turn on a dime while going to top speed in just under 2 seconds.

The Reaver I'm just not worried about

Algo · 2012-06-10, 01:26 AM

I did not notice a lot of speed change when diving/climbing in the fighters, and the planes are hardcapped in speed, you could dive from a mile up and still do the same speed you do when you fly level, its hard to guess from videos though.

maradine · 2012-06-10, 01:29 AM

Very good points, but two wrenches for your otherwise delicious gears:

Energy fighting only really applies where there is a significant time delta to achieving or regaining energy, be it velocity or altitude. PS2 seems to afford instant acceleration to v-max and no pitch-related gains or losses.
As there is no flight envelope, furballs can reductio ad absurdum - the dreaded turret fight. In this case, the Reaver actually appears to have the advantage.

Put another way, I want you to be right, but I think you may be wrong.

maradine · 2012-06-10, 01:35 AM

Originally Posted by elfailo

Not that it will make a lot of difference if they keep TTK's this low though.

Strewth.

AvacadoEight · 2012-06-10, 01:43 AM

Thing is, since the NC do the most damage, its presumable that when an NC pilot gets a lock on, or can shoot you, you're done. Or at least, I think.

Algo · 2012-06-10, 01:47 AM

NC do it head-on.

lolroflroflcake · 2012-06-10, 02:00 AM

I want you to be right, oh boy do I ever. This is how air to air combat should be in Planetside turreting shouldn't be a viable tactic, it just makes everything less fun.

RandomNPC · 2012-06-10, 02:01 AM

Originally Posted by AvacadoEight

Thing is, since the NC do the most damage, its presumable that when an NC pilot gets a lock on, or can shoot you, you're done. Or at least, I think.

True, but because of their lack of mobility, getting the jump on your target is going to be important. Neither the scythe or mosquito will have too much trouble getting behind you and staying on your ass (particularly the scythe), and with options for chaff, you better not be relying on lock ons too much.

Honestly they're just better at different things if you ask me. Scythe is pure aerial superiority, mosquito is a balanced little thing, and the reaver more air to ground focused. But really we need to consider the side/upgrades, I'm sure the reaver won't seem so helpless with a few certs.

AvacadoEight · 2012-06-10, 02:21 AM

Originally Posted by RandomNPC

True, but because of their lack of mobility, getting the jump on your target is going to be important. Neither the scythe or mosquito will have too much trouble getting behind you and staying on your ass (particularly the scythe), and with options for chaff, you better not be relying on lock ons too much.

Honestly they're just better at different things if you ask me. Scythe is pure aerial superiority, mosquito is a balanced little thing, and the reaver more air to ground focused. But really we need to consider the side/upgrades, I'm sure the reaver won't seem so helpless with a few certs.

True. It is arguable that with certs and side grades you can make your Reaver almost as fast or maneuverable as say, a Mosq or a Scythe. You may sacrifice some firepower, but hey. If I can keep up, its worth it.

Burnzblood · 2012-06-10, 02:40 AM

Air combat looks pretty solid IMO

Vexus · 2012-06-10, 02:42 AM

I am excited about testing it all in beta. Granted, everything is new and setups aren't optimal, so gameplay is likely poor quality for most pilots. But just judging from the alpha videos and e3 streams it seems like the differences aren't as pronounced as one might expect.

The slowest fighter, the Reaver, seems to have a burst of up to around 300. The fastest fighter, the Mosquito, seems to top out just over 400. Given what we've seen in beta, there seems to be quite a lot of time to get an extra shot or two in before the Mosquito's extra speed can meaningfully disengage. So, I don't see speed as a huge advantage.

Durability is easily calculated, but I can't really tell just from watching the videos, so the Reaver's strength remains a wait-and-see for me.

What does seem to be a very significant advantage is the Scythe maneuverability in a dogfight. While not really a surprise, this looks to be the premier air-to-air vehicle. I've heard it was nerfed twice already ... so it sounds like it is proving a challenge to balance. I'm hopeful that we get a lot of good beta-testing for air-to-air from good pilots to hammer out a solid balance.

The devs have said that you can re-equip your aircraft to somewhat change its role, so hopefully our beta testing will help them find the right levels for everything without pigeon-holing each empire into a single playstyle.

Blue · 2012-06-10, 02:45 AM

I think this fits in perfectly with the faction play styles.... having a mossy and scythe dogging it out with a reaver hidden behind a cliff waiting for the lock on. Yes 1v1 nc has the disadvantage, but isn't that the same as the jackhammer vs. mcg? Jh everyone complained was op at close range, but at med to long range could be beaten with a flashlight....

The show area for E3 i don't think is indicative of how battles and dogfights in particular will end up playing out...although we still should not forget cu-sti-mi-za-tions or whatever lol....there will be VS players who want some extra power in place for having nc-esque mobility, and nc players who will sacrifice some firepower for more maneuverability

MrMorton · 2012-06-10, 02:57 AM

btw the mosquito needs to approach at high altitude to avoid detection and AA fire, from the videos I also think there is no energy gain from diving.

Originally Posted by maradine

Very good points, but two wrenches for your otherwise delicious gears:

Energy fighting only really applies where there is a significant time delta to achieving or regaining energy, be it velocity or altitude. PS2 seems to afford instant acceleration to v-max and no pitch-related gains or losses.
As there is no flight envelope, furballs can reductio ad absurdum - the dreaded turret fight. In this case, the Reaver actually appears to have the advantage.

Put another way, I want you to be right, but I think you may be wrong.

very good points, but the lack of a complex flight model is a double edged sword, as the speed cap means that the TR will ALWAYS have an energy advantage over the other two factions, and should still be able to exploit that even in situations where the other aircraft can quickly get up to speed (i am discounting missiles and assuming countermeasures will deal with them for the most part and that guns will be the weapon of choice for air to air)

the turreting should be prevented almost entirely by the mosquito (gotta give TR some credit), as say, a reaver just chilling will be a very easy target for a mosquito at longer range as they will not have to lead at all and will be able to hopefully pass by before the NC can do much damage. conversely the NC will do best flying around at very low altitudes bring the mosquitos in AA range and popping into hover mode to force overshoots.

in VS vs NC, the fast acceleration of the vanu combined with its longer range than the other factions means it will be able to "kite" any turreting nc pilots, getting on their tail, forcing NC to hover in order to turn fast enough, then ac
celerating away and taking potshots on the slowed NC craft.

to counter, the NC will likely be relying on exceptional aim to bring down the scythe in the few seconds it is vulnerable each pass.

so yes, the reaver will end up turreting a lot, but I don't think the other factions will find hover that appealing.

Originally Posted by LoneHunter

I've been thinking the exact same thing as some of those points.

As a TR pilot I can't stop thinking about being the fastest aircraft in the sky, and how to take on the Scythe. In TB's live stream I saw a lot of Skeeters going too fast and passing the target or getting too close to fire rockets. But the Scythe is so damn maneuverable, no matter how fast I am I think if I get too close they can just "turn'n burn" to get behind me, but again I can out run them.

In the end the Scythe will be the ultimate in hovering, it can turn on a dime while going to top speed in just under 2 seconds.

The Reaver I'm just not worried about

Well, in 1v1 the scythe is going to be the dog fighter par excellence, and is going to be difficult to take down. However, scale that fight up into a 2v2, or a 10v10, and suddenly the mosquito has a huge advantage.

Why is this? well, consider that in order to evade a single mosquito's attack, the scythe must face the mosquito, stop maneuvering (besides swaying back and forth to throw off TR's aim), and save AB until right when the mosquito gets in range. That means that if a second mosquito approaches from a different angle, it has basically a free shot on the scythe AND will be able to get an extra long firing time when the scythe is forced to accelerate. Even if there are two scythes and each engages the respective mosquito, the mosquito's just switch targets and the end result is the same.

This scales all the way up, but the larger the forces get, the more insanely difficult timing all of these attacks gets for TR, while VS really requires more in the way of skilled pilots to be able to best evade multiple aircraft while focus firing on a separate one (for practical purposes the vs squad would attack the first aircraft attacking the squad leader).

So it turns into a balance of who can communicate best, and recognize when they are being targeted, react appropriately, and maintaining your formation at all times to maximize survivability.

tl;dr

mosquitos and scythes are gonna be scared of turreting.

in TvV 1v1 favors scythes but 2v2 and up favors mosquitos with good communication.

btw I fly VS, but I am trying to be unbiased

WaryWizard · 2012-06-10, 03:02 AM

The NC may not be the best AA fighter, but I'm sure the reaver will be the bane of many Tanks.

The scythe is quite maneuverable, so I can see a very experienced scythe pilot taking on multiple enemies and winning.

the Mosquito is fast so it can run away when they get into a real fight.