Default arsenal should contain a shotgun/SMG

[Micro]

I'm all good with this, as long as VS don't get charge up shit.

[TheSaltySeagull]

In the interest of keeping newer players competitive with long term players I have to agree. I have two characters I play. My TR main with tons of bought shit and my VS alt with all default stuff. For the most part the VS character performs well enough that I do not feel restricted or underpowered compared to my TR toon except when it comes to CQC. You are basically required at this point to either have a shotgun of some type, an SMG, or sit in a dual AI max in order to keep competitive in CQC now. In some of the more open bases you can kinda get by without those but in a tower or a biolab it is essential to have one of the above.

The need to make a default SMG/Shotgun or make one available for very cheap like sub 500 certs. Other wise newer players are just fodder in close range fights for players who paid or have been playing longer.

[Whiteagle]

Originally Posted by AThreatToYou

No? I tried the Blitz, useless past about ~7m. Cyclone has some range on it.

Yeah, the first batch of SMGs are apparently the faster firing, longer ranged Weapons...

Originally Posted by AThreatToYou

Well, I don't know exactly about the TR ones, but I have pretty much stopped seeing the non-drum mag TR SMG.

...

It's obvious that the Armistice is underpowered.

That'd be the Armistice...

It's got a slightly faster reload, but with only 30 rounds compaired to the Hailstorm's 60 it's just no contest...

Originally Posted by TheSaltySeagull

In the interest of keeping newer players competitive with long term players I have to agree. I have two characters I play. My TR main with tons of bought shit and my VS alt with all default stuff. For the most part the VS character performs well enough that I do not feel restricted or underpowered compared to my TR toon except when it comes to CQC. You are basically required at this point to either have a shotgun of some type, an SMG, or sit in a dual AI max in order to keep competitive in CQC now. In some of the more open bases you can kinda get by without those but in a tower or a biolab it is essential to have one of the above.

The need to make a default SMG/Shotgun or make one available for very cheap like sub 500 certs. Other wise newer players are just fodder in close range fights for players who paid or have been playing longer.

True enough...
Probably doesn't help that Pump-shotguns are One-hit Kills and have better DPS then even the Auto-versions.

[Nur]

No the Armistice is not underpowered.

[Falcon_br]

Originally Posted by Nur

No the Armistice is not underpowered.

Dude, check In game weapon data.

The armistice only got improved bullet speed and a very small increase RoF!
The HailStorm reloads faster, have more bullets and can use adv laser sights!

[Gatekeeper]

Not sure of the best way to achieve it, but I definitely agree that there should be a shotgun as part of the default weapon selection. The way the game works currently, they're a key part of basic play - not some kind of optional unlock.

Personally I'd favour giving the Engineer a shotgun instead of a carbine as their basic weapon (and taking shotguns away from the other classes), but I don't imagine that'd be a popular change

[PredatorFour]

Originally Posted by Dragonskin

One of them is useless for each faction. The one that came out first. So got burned on that one. The Armistice, Eridani and Cyclone are all useless to compared to their extended mag counter parts which are the Hailstorm, Sirius and Blitz.

The eirdani is better than the sirius, packs more of a punch. The TTK is ridiculous on the eridani but the sirius takes longer (granted it has more in a clip). I disagree with your comments but as for the topic i don't think there should be common pool variants of these weapons. It doesn't take long to amass 1000 certs for a gun does it ?

[ChipMHazard]

Originally Posted by Rolfski

Completely agree. They're in the wrong hands though, paying people only. Which is why I created this topic.

Agreed. At least give "normal" players the ability to fight back on equal terms. Heck it might even help show the issues with the base design and the effectiveness of the shotguns.

[Shuuda]

Sorry, but I really have to question this fallacy some people seem to be spreading; this notion that more people are using shotguns because there are five of them.

I seriously doubt the fact that there are five shotguns is the reason more people are using them. It just means that people who use shotguns have five different options to choose from. If there were only two shotguns in the game that would not mean that the number of people using them would be less than half than of what is currently is. All it would mean is that people who use shotguns would only have two to choose from.

The reason shotguns are popular (though they don't actually seem as omnipresent as the melodramatic people in this thread are making out on Miller at least) is not because there are five of them, but because they became the flavour of the month when people started bellowing about how OP they were. People will always gravitate to whatever they think will get them the most kills, regardless of how many different options there are.

To be honest, I hardly see the point in trying to discuss weapon balance with people who insist on throwing overly dramatic hyperbole at everything. I suppose that's MMO communities for you.

[Whiteagle]

Originally Posted by Shuuda

The reason shotguns are popular (though they don't actually seem as omnipresent as the melodramatic people in this thread are making out on Miller at least) is not because there are five of them, but because they became the flavour of the month when people started bellowing about how OP they were. People will always gravitate to whatever they think will get them the most kills, regardless of how many different options there are.

Well the biggest problem is the Pump Actions and their One-hit Kill...
This wouldn't be so bad if this power came at the cost of Re-fire rate, but they are nearly as fast as my FULL AUTO Nighthawk!
So not only can they take you out on the FIRST shot, but even if they screw up nailing your head they can quickly polish you off with a second round.

It's outright crazy man...

[ChipMHazard]

Originally Posted by Shuuda

Sorry, but I really have to question this fallacy some people seem to be spreading; this notion that more people are using shotguns because there are five of them.

I seriously doubt the fact that there are five shotguns is the reason more people are using them. It just means that people who use shotguns have five different options to choose from. If there were only two shotguns in the game that would not mean that the number of people using them would be less than half than of what is currently is. All it would mean is that people who use shotguns would only have two to choose from.

The reason shotguns are popular (though they don't actually seem as omnipresent as the melodramatic people in this thread are making out on Miller at least) is not because there are five of them, but because they became the flavour of the month when people started bellowing about how OP they were. People will always gravitate to whatever they think will get them the most kills, regardless of how many different options there are.

To be honest, I hardly see the point in trying to discuss weapon balance with people who insist on throwing overly dramatic hyperbole at everything. I suppose that's MMO communities for you.

Did I miss something, who made that claim?

No, that's not the reason why there are so many players who use shotguns in close quarters.

Really? And here I thought it was because they fit perfectly into how the game currently plays, as in most objectives are inside enclosed areas that forces players into close combat. I don't know where you got the idea that others believe that the shotgun's overall popularity is directly tied to the amount of shotgun variants in the game.
True, the pump action is probably a popular choice because of its ability to OHK other players. Although I personally prefer my automatic shotgun.
It's also true that shotguns aren't so much overpowered as the game itself simply lends itself more towards close quarters combat in many situations. High ROF weapons are no less effective in close quarters and it's easy enough to outmaneuver an inexperienced shotgun user. Then again it's not the inexperienced users I have a problem with.
I do believe that the main reason why people dislike pump action shotguns, or anything else that can OHK, is that the players in question will feel cheated; unable to react before dying. Many other weapons give the illusion of the ability to react, even though they don't actually allow for it.

Well you know what you can not do if you ever feel like not contributing to a discussion.

[Kail]

Originally Posted by Rolfski

Completely agree. They're in the wrong hands though, paying people only. Which is why I created this topic.

Yeah, its terrible that shotguns are only available for SC through the marketplace.

I don't think SMGs and Shotgun's need to be available by default because the default weapon's aren't supposed to allow for every gameplay style. If you look, every single default weapon across infantry & vehicles fits into a "useful at any range and target" category with the exception of the sniper rifles.

However I think it would make a lot of sense to have one of the shotguns be a 250 or 500 cert version to allow players to pick up that playstyle faster if that's what they want (much like the Burst or SF variants of carbines / ARs).

[Snydenthur]

Originally Posted by Shuuda

The reason shotguns are popular (though they don't actually seem as omnipresent as the melodramatic people in this thread are making out on Miller at least) is not because there are five of them, but because they became the flavour of the month when people started bellowing about how OP they were. People will always gravitate to whatever they think will get them the most kills, regardless of how many different options there are.

They aren't really as popular as people say there are. I'm on miller too, I don't really see any biolab or tower fight full of shotguns. On the contrary, they are the minority. During some games I haven't seen a single shotgun user. I agree with you that if they are popular somewhere, it's because of community. Most people go on about shotgun being overpowered, so of course some people automatically start using it.

I don't know how accurate some sites are, but the most used pump action shotgun sees an average of 2h 23min of usage. For some measurement, there are only 4 carbines that are used less than pump action shotguns, on average. And only 1 lmg that is used less than that.

[Shuuda]

I don't know where you got the idea that others believe that the shotgun's overall popularity is directly tied to the amount of shotgun variants in the game.

I must have worded things very badly, and now I wish there was a "delete" button for it. I wasn't trying to suggest that people see that as a reason shotguns are more popular, even if that's exactly what I ended up saying in a moments misjudgement. People often makes comments over how there are "too many" shotguns in the game, for which there are five. I don't see why such a thing is relavent to the balance of these weapons since they are just side grades of each other. It just seems like a moot point for which they try to pile on more reasons to dislike shotguns.

It's also true that shotguns aren't so much overpowered as the game itself simply lends itself more towards close quarters combat in many situations. High ROF weapons are no less effective in close quarters and it's easy enough to outmaneuver an inexperienced shotgun user. Then again it's not the inexperienced users I have a problem with.

While I agree with this for most part, I must also say that for the most part it is not hard to position one's self in a way as to not get completely topped by shotgun. Most of my deaths to shotguns are more down to carelessness of a lapse in awareness than unavoidable point blank fights. In my experience, I used to use a shotgun but then quit after finding a carbine to be the generally more useful weapon in more situations for LA. Everytime I try to use a shotgun nowadays I normal give up on the thought of "I'd probably have won that fight if I had been using another weapon".

Well you know what you can not do if you ever feel like not contributing to a discussion.

You'll have to forgive me for the last comment. It's just the rampant hysteria of some posts just frustrates me to no end.

[ChipMHazard]

Originally Posted by Shuuda

I must have worded things very badly, and now I wish there was a "delete" button for it. I wasn't trying to suggest that people see that as a reason shotguns are more popular, even if that's exactly what I ended up saying in a moments misjudgement. People often makes comments over how there are "too many" shotguns in the game, for which there are five. I don't see why such a thing is relavent to the balance of these weapons since they are just side grades of each other. It just seems like a moot point for which they try to pile on more reasons to dislike shotguns.

While I agree with this for most part, I must also say that for the most part it is not hard to position one's self in a way as to not get completely topped by shotgun. Most of my deaths to shotguns are more down to carelessness of a lapse in awareness than unavoidable point blank fights. In my experience, I used to use a shotgun but then quit after finding a carbine to be the generally more useful weapon in more situations for LA.

You'll have to forgive me for the last comment. It's just the rampant hysteria of some posts just frustrates me to no end.

True. The obvious reason why there are so many variants is for SOE to make more money.
The only issue I can see with the amount of shotgun variants is that some people believe SOE's business model makes them nerf an older version before a newer version is released. But yes, it doesn't have anything to do with the overall balance.

Agreed. Most time when I get killed by a shotgun it's either bad luck (Only needing one more shot from my carbine to kill someone with a shotgun), getting taken by complete surprise (At which point it probably doesn't matter what weapon was being used) or me being an idiot and sprinting around corners (Even when I know I shouldn't) or otherwise not paying attention to my surroundings.
You're right, it is easy enough to stay out of the shotguns' effective range, in many cases at least. There are still many situations where you can't avoid if you want to play the objective.
I also agree that carbines, assault rifles etc. are more versatile than shotguns. Which is also why I normally use them, even in very close quarters.

It happens to us all.