Sniping Mechanics and Headshots - Page 3

Jimmuc · 2012-01-07, 06:33 PM

Higby quote on the sniper cloaking: "yep, that's an infiltrator with a sniping loadout. If you're utilizing a sniper loadout you'll have a less perfect cloak that doesn't last as long. It's more for some enhanced camouflage while moving from sniping positions than using for typical infiltration. Anyone who gets up on you with that configuration is going to see through it." and i think somewhere i read/heard that you can't snipe and be cloaked at the same time but i might be wrong on that.

LongBow · 2012-01-07, 06:34 PM

Originally Posted by EASyEightyEight

And we'll ALL have access to aircraft and jump packs. Not like we NEED to rely on somebody else to get vengeance for us. If the sniper stays put, he's as good as dead.

I'm actually suggesting just that ... following on from the comments above when I said "Reaver swarm of hate" I was talking about players who are no longer in their traditional role and are aggressively hard countering the sniper not to gain enjoyment but to end frustration.

Sorry for being unclear.

Bags · 2012-01-07, 07:02 PM

I hate snipers in BF3, as long as I can't be one shot reliably every time I take cover and stop moving for a second I'll be happy.

Forsaken One · 2012-01-07, 10:36 PM

Planetside is a game of fun, teamwork, and where you can feel lost in the immersion of being a part of a army.

skill giving more power to the player defys this. I'm sorry but it does.

When the game gets to the point( lets say in a year.) where all the skilled snipers and all the skilled jet flyers (I'm thinking battlefield2 style air where people bullshit that air takes skill to fly to defend the overpowered bullshit.) start to just shit all over everyone and even more so new players the games going to suck. Sure it will keep those skilled people because the games F2P and new people will make an account all the time but other then those who stay only because they can auto win with their overpowered shit because they have the skill the use it no one else will bother to stay for long.

Honestly one can't even defend the whole skill = power without pretty much admitting they just want to gain the skill to use the overpowered (whatever.) to be a legit asshole in the game and frustrate everyone who wants to play for fun.

HOWEVER. Planetside did it ok. Brains tended to win over reflexes and even in the snipers case if they wanted an instant kill they needed to have teamwork with another sniper which is at least decently fair.

you see, its simple. what happens in games where skill=power is that anything that does not have that overpowerness because unusable. forcing everyone to use what takes skill. half the content of the game ends up going down the shitter because if they use it they will be at a disadvantage as it doesn't take skill and so its not overpowered.

and so, just add the ability to cloak on top of that lameness. Honestly I'd rather cloakers get one shot kill knives then the ability of a long range weapon, let alone a powerful long range weapon.

NCLynx · 2012-01-08, 02:55 AM

Originally Posted by texico

I can imagine infantry in the field being pretty impossible.

Is everyone standing still in this imaginary world?

While I'll admit to rarely ever sniping in PS, so I might simply be an a-hole, I hardly consider PS1s way of sniping "perfect".

I feel like if snipers will have the ability to do such insane damage then they'll likely have more to watch out for than just other snipers and cloakers.

Heck I'll ride around in an ATV for the sole purpose of looking for snipers if I have to.

texico · 2012-01-08, 02:56 AM

I don't know how this turned into cloaking, but as I've said I don't necessarily disagree with snipers being able to have some kind of cloaking. But the mechanics need to be handled very carefully.

A big problem for Snipers in planetside was dying from people spotting you when they weren't even looking for you. Snipers had to wear normal armour, and normal armour in planetside along with red names meant you would stick out a great deal. Unfortunately, this basically led to the fact that most sniping could only really occur from behind friendly lines where you're protected by your own empire's influence; sniping could only occur from within the main body of the empire's forces on the front line.

So as I said there's a fine line with the mechanics here. Any sniper's cloaking needs to be designed so that a sniper can be hidden from the casual eye, but is fairly easily findable for anybody specifically looking for the sniper, because they've seen bullets coming from that direction for example. In PlanetSide trying to find a nice hill to snipe from meant getting farmed by aircraft most of the time that just happened to be flying overhead, or passing vehicles or soldiers - probably 80% of all lone-sniping deaths is pure chance, and it's impossible to hide from because in PS1 at least you can't make yourself any less visible than you are without wearing a pistol-only infiltrator suit. Ultimately it meant that the whole sniping vision of packing trunks full of ammo and supplies, being a lone gunman or working in very small teams away from the front line was lost. Some kind of "anti-casual eye" system of cloaking could bring all that back, but anybody specifically looking for you should be able to find you.

But it has to be two-shot kills.

texico · 2012-01-08, 03:12 AM

Originally Posted by NCLynx

Is everyone standing still in this imaginary world?

While I'll admit to rarely ever sniping in PS, so I might simply be an a-hole, I hardly consider PS1s way of sniping "perfect".

I feel like if snipers will have the ability to do such insane damage then they'll likely have more to watch out for than just other snipers and cloakers.

Heck I'll ride around in an ATV for the sole purpose of looking for snipers if I have to.

Snipers dotted around are easy to kill. But that's not usually how it works given PlanetSide's scale. Snipers usually sit within the body of their empire's forces on the front line, Sniping people ON the front line. You can't get to them with aircav because of AA, you can't get to them on foot because of their empire's ground tanks and soldiers, and for the same reason you can't reach them in vehicles either. Maybe mossies might take a few out now and then if they're quick enough to avoid AA, but snipers just respawn at AMS' 5 feet away. If PS2's field battles are anything like PS1's, you'll have groups of 10 or 15 snipers on a hill overlooking the front line well within their empire's forces, sniping people with one-shot kills, meaning infantry can't step out in the open.

Maybe the mechanics, with bullet arcs and recoil or whatever, could make it difficult enough that landing a one-shot kill is as difficult as landing two shots in PlanetSide, but even then, what's the point? All it means is the player getting hit has NO chance. No warning, no ability to react, they just drop dead. I recon tons of people will quickly learn the skill necessary to get one-shot kills if it's possible, and they'll find a way to overcome all the other variables. If the damage is 70%, all the onus is on the player, to find cover, to not be so far away from cover or careless as to let 2 shots 5 seconds apart land on them, to try and dodge another shot by walking unpredictably. And if they die, at least they feel like it was well within their capabilities to stay alive if they were smarter next time.

Lonehunter · 2012-01-08, 03:32 AM

I don't think 1 shot kills should be common. Due to shields, different armor classes, possible shield implants or headshot immunities... pistols, shotguns, assault rifles, smgs should not get 1 shot kills.

But a Sniper who had to put a certain amount of time into the class (which is debatable, just not for those just casually being a sniper) should have an opportunity for 1 shot kills.

CidHighwind · 2012-01-08, 03:42 AM

Originally Posted by texico

Snipers dotted around are easy to kill. But that's not usually how it works given PlanetSide's scale. Snipers usually sit within the body of their empire's forces on the front line, Sniping people ON the front line. You can't get to them with aircav because of AA, you can't get to them on foot because of their empire's ground tanks and soldiers, and for the same reason you can't reach them in vehicles either. Maybe mossies might take a few out now and then if they're quick enough to avoid AA, but snipers just respawn at AMS' 5 feet away. If PS2's field battles are anything like PS1's, you'll have groups of 10 or 15 snipers on a hill overlooking the front line well within their empire's forces, sniping people with one-shot kills, meaning infantry can't step out in the open.

Maybe the mechanics, with bullet arcs and recoil or whatever, could make it difficult enough that landing a one-shot kill is as difficult as landing two shots in PlanetSide, but even then, what's the point? All it means is the player getting hit has NO chance. No warning, no ability to react, they just drop dead. I recon tons of people will quickly learn the skill necessary to get one-shot kills if it's possible, and they'll find a way to overcome all the other variables. If the damage is 70%, all the onus is on the player, to find cover, to not be so far away from cover or careless as to let 2 shots 5 seconds apart land on them, to try and dodge another shot by walking unpredictably. And if they die, at least they feel like it was well within their capabilities to stay alive if they were smarter next time.

Tex, believe me when I say that I understand where you're coming from, especially because your objections do ring true with a lot of my own beliefs a few months back on this. I also thought that this was going to ruin the game, and that snipers would walk around the battlefield owning the rest of the infantry. However, I came around when I realized a very simple point.

Planetside 1 was, in reality, a very slowly developing game. Air cavalry is called fast fliers for a reason. They are pretty much the only thing that reacts quickly in PS1. PS2 has been said to pick up the pace slightly, this is why I feel that snipers wont play the 'kill you all dead' role that you worry about. Yes, there will be sieges, and yes, there will be snipers shooting into the courtyard receiving one shot kills once in a while, but If the front line is moving so consistently, then the snipers will only be a momentary hindering factor to the army that is retreating, and only a temporary benefit to the one advancing.

What I'm trying to get at is that, even though snipers may have a strong short term influence on the front line, it will play a minor enough role on the battlefield that it wont be a factor. There are going to be troops with JUMP JETS. Certainly, the best of the snipers will learn how to head-shot these guys as they descend on their face from 100 feet above, but the fact that action will be faster paced means that even the SAFEST sniper and sniper perch will be subjected to the increased pace of line and troop movement.

This really just turns the sniper into a different type of infantry - a back-line infantry.

To truly make this a non-issue, the only balancing SOE really needs to be sure of is to make it so that 'no-scoping' with sniper rifles deals less than half health damage or some such, to ensure that snipers don't gain an unfair advantage in close quarters.

These have been my thoughts, but I would love to hear counter-points from any and all.

P.S. Fear the Poodle!

Hmr85 · 2012-01-08, 07:29 AM

Originally Posted by CidHighwind

Tex, believe me when I say that I understand where you're coming from, especially because your objections do ring true with a lot of my own beliefs a few months back on this. I also thought that this was going to ruin the game, and that snipers would walk around the battlefield owning the rest of the infantry. However, I came around when I realized a very simple point.

Planetside 1 was, in reality, a very slowly developing game. Air cavalry is called fast fliers for a reason. They are pretty much the only thing that reacts quickly in PS1. PS2 has been said to pick up the pace slightly, this is why I feel that snipers wont play the 'kill you all dead' role that you worry about. Yes, there will be sieges, and yes, there will be snipers shooting into the courtyard receiving one shot kills once in a while, but If the front line is moving so consistently, then the snipers will only be a momentary hindering factor to the army that is retreating, and only a temporary benefit to the one advancing.

What I'm trying to get at is that, even though snipers may have a strong short term influence on the front line, it will play a minor enough role on the battlefield that it wont be a factor. There are going to be troops with JUMP JETS. Certainly, the best of the snipers will learn how to head-shot these guys as they descend on their face from 100 feet above, but the fact that action will be faster paced means that even the SAFEST sniper and sniper perch will be subjected to the increased pace of line and troop movement.

This really just turns the sniper into a different type of infantry - a back-line infantry.

To truly make this a non-issue, the only balancing SOE really needs to be sure of is to make it so that 'no-scoping' with sniper rifles deals less than half health damage or some such, to ensure that snipers don't gain an unfair advantage in close quarters.

These have been my thoughts, but I would love to hear counter-points from any and all.

P.S. Fear the Poodle!

Very well said, I couldn't agree more. I don't see this being a huge issue by any means. It really all comes down to how SOE implements it. By no means should they be 100% cloaked. But I do agree they should have some level of camouflage.

I could see cloaked snipers being 30% cloaked while on the move and 45 to 50% cloaked while sitting stationary. A good way to balance it would be when the sniper pulls his rifle up to look into the scope it drops the cloak completely making the sniper visible with a slight 2 or 3 second delay after the shot for the cloak to re-engage.

When beta rolls around will be able to get a first hand look on how cloaked snipers will work in the game. If they appear to be game breaking I'm sure the community will raise all kind of heck about it.

Edited: for confusion

acosmo · 2012-01-08, 11:39 AM

wow.. since when were long range AI infantry "game breaking"? if anything, you'll actually have to use your brain in order to overcome a few challenges

Hmr85 · 2012-01-08, 11:41 AM

I am assuming you where responding to me. I was also referring to the image back on page 1 with the cloaker holding a sniper rifle and giving my version on how I think they could do it.

Rumblepit · 2012-01-08, 12:47 PM

lmao at this one....

whats the difference between a 1 shot kill from a sniper and a tank? nothing.... you guys are saying its ok to be 1 shoted by 1 thing and not the other, is what im hearing.and the cloaking suit will allow the snipers to move at range undetected. i think most snipers will grab a jetpack over a cloak suit any day. i know i would.

this is a very common feature among modern fps games.its not that hard to get use to and it really dose not effect gameplay .

for those of you who are new to modern fps gameplay , if your standing around or not using the environment for cover as you move, your dead. snipers will be 1 of many things that will be killing you over and over again.

Hmr85 · 2012-01-08, 01:15 PM

Originally Posted by Rumblepit

lmao at this one....

whats the difference between a 1 shot kill from a sniper and a tank? nothing.... you guys are saying its ok to be 1 shoted by 1 thing and not the other, is what im hearing.and the cloaking suit will allow the snipers to move at range undetected. i think most snipers will grab a jetpack over a cloak suit any day. i know i would.

I agree with the 1 shot kill. If the sniper can land a head shot cool. I never had any issue with snipers in PS1. That seems fair to me.

My only concern is with cloaker's being able to sit back at distance or up close in permanent cloak without anybody being able to see him to return fire. I have no issue with players in regular armor like in PS1 just cloakers as they where pretty effective in PS1 with out the sniper rifle if played right.

If sniper is its own class then I have no issue with a skill allowing snipers to move cloaked to where ever on a 20 or 30 second timer with a slight cool down. I do somewhat have a issue with a permanent cloak.

Its all just going to depend on how SOE implements them like I mentioned above. In case anybody gets confused I am talking about cloakers being snipers.

Edit: Sorry not trying to come off as a jerk in this. Even though I know its going to read like it.

Rumblepit · 2012-01-08, 01:25 PM

its a cloak mechanic for light infantry under the sniping spec., thats all.cloakers will not be able to shoot sniper rifles.