Require LOS with the Phoenix? - Page 3

Colonel Nikolai · 2004-02-20, 08:51 AM

The Phoenix is:
Outdoor Anti-MAX (even in the CY of a base! Walls are no protection!)
Indoor Anti-MAX (dumb fire mode is sweet and it's a 3 shot MAX killer!)
Outdoor Anti-Light Vehicle
Outdoor Heavy Vehicle Harrasser
Outdoor Infantry harrassment weapon (and *sniper bane)
Vehicle Pad Destroyer (ultra critical in a seige)
CY AMS Destroyer (ultra critical in a seige)

That is exactly my point. The weapon is simply too flexible for something that can be fired from near-absolute cover.

Please keep in mind that I was not bitching, I was attempting to present a reasonable, logical solution to a problem I've been seeing since well before the patch. Please do not assume this is someone screaming "NERF!!! NREF THE PHEENIX!!!" I have my simple, objective reasons. Defend your weapon all you want, but the solution to cloaker kills is a friendly watching your back and you really won't be exposed to as much fire as you think.

Why? Because the engagement range you are thinking about is your current one, not your evolved one. With the LOS requirement, you'll be taking more of your shots at closer ranges instead of cross-bridge and cross-base slugging, which drastically reduces flight time. And for those of you firing from prepared positions, once your missile is on course to hit a slower target, an alt-click to dumbfire would release the missile from your guidance (dunno if this works now, but would be added for sure). Lastly, anyone who still wants to fire indirectly can fire at an upward angle over a hill, then dive down to the target. The only difference is that you won't be able to guide after you lose LOS and the missiles will be easier to dodge. This eliminates firing out of tower doors, which is my biggest concern, and will make Phoenix users have to pick their shots better. Strikers are near-useless at long range in a forest, while a skilled Phoenix user can weave through the trees. You try that with a TOW and your missile will get snared and wrap itself around a tree trunk, but here its not an issue (I know its a game, I know its not supposed to be realistic to some of you, but your ability to fire these things through obstacles blows my mind).

I'm just proposing that the NC have a way to lose their locks, just like the TR do. I'm not asking for a damage reduction, or longer reload time, or for slower missiles. I'm merely asking for some fair play.

In other news, its very annoying trying to form a Prowler squad up when Phoenixes keep smashing the Vpad and into your tanks from the other side of a mountain.

WritheNC · 2004-02-20, 09:01 AM

NC has a way of losing their lock.

Its called human error + lag.

You don't know how many times I've fired a phoenix, and because of lag during a battle, that MAX warps 3 feet to the right of where he was standing right before my missile hits.

Yes, its a 3 shot max killer indoors, but then again, NC is all about up close firepower, so it fits the theme. Even then, the 2 shot common pool Decimator does a much, much better job in that scenario.

TheRagingGerbil · 2004-02-20, 09:29 AM

Nobody here has mentioned the 250 meter range yet. Now this is flight distance, so after making acouple of big turns, you're done. It's not like we can volley these things into your courtyard from outside the SOI...

Colonel Nikolai · 2004-02-20, 09:34 AM

250 meters? Good God. That's 50 more than cycler-sniping and FAR more than a striker can lock. Ahh well, no more time for this. Off to the daily grind.

Mudflap · 2004-02-20, 09:50 AM

Originally Posted by BadAsh

The Phoenix is:
Outdoor Anti-MAX (even in the CY of a base! Walls are no protection!)
Indoor Anti-MAX (dumb fire mode is sweet and it's a 3 shot MAX killer!)
Outdoor Anti-Light Vehicle
Outdoor Heavy Vehicle Harrasser
Outdoor Infantry harrassment weapon (and *sniper bane)
Vehicle Pad Destroyer (ultra critical in a seige)
CY AMS Destroyer (ultra critical in a seige)

LOL, that's the funniest thing I've ever heard. I use a Pheonix, and if you're indoors fighting a max, then you're toast. You won't survive long enough to fire the 3 shots necessary. As I said before, it has the worst TTK. The Lancer is far superior indoors versus MAXes, and the striker isn't half bad, but everyone knows that the deci is king of indoor anti-max anyway.

As for destroying vehicle pads, half the people at teh terminal can repair, and we sure as heck can't kill them for crap, so what does it matter?
Infantry harrassment? I'd much rather not hit a soft target. It's pointless and dumb.
Destroying vehicles in the CY takes alot of Pheonix users with alot of coordination, and nobody repairing them.

What nobody points out is that the Pheonix, overall, is the slowest killer of vehicles, and the slow projectile speed keeps us from hitting fast moving targets. Light vehicles can quite often get out of range very quickly.

The main people who should fear the Pheonix are Maxes and Lightnings. A good buggy crew will leave the base opposite the fighting and flank the Pheonix users, and have field day when they get to them.

BadAsh · 2004-02-20, 12:36 PM

Originally Posted by Mudflap

LOL, that's the funniest thing I've ever heard. I use a Pheonix, and if you're indoors fighting a max, then you're toast. You won't survive long enough to fire the 3 shots necessary. As I said before, it has the worst TTK. The Lancer is far superior indoors versus MAXes, and the striker isn't half bad, but everyone knows that the deci is king of indoor anti-max anyway.

As for destroying vehicle pads, half the people at teh terminal can repair, and we sure as heck can't kill them for crap, so what does it matter?
Infantry harrassment? I'd much rather not hit a soft target. It's pointless and dumb.
Destroying vehicles in the CY takes alot of Pheonix users with alot of coordination, and nobody repairing them.

What nobody points out is that the Pheonix, overall, is the slowest killer of vehicles, and the slow projectile speed keeps us from hitting fast moving targets. Light vehicles can quite often get out of range very quickly.

The main people who should fear the Pheonix are Maxes and Lightnings. A good buggy crew will leave the base opposite the fighting and flank the Pheonix users, and have field day when they get to them.

The only problem with your counter analysis is that I do all of the above all of the time. I can easily clear a CY of AMS, MAX units, and keep the Vehicle Pad down all pretty much single handedly. With a few coordinated Phoenix users this task is made all too easy.

Against a Phoenix assault the enemy either finds cover, leaves the area, or dies. That's a sweet set of options to dish out to an opponent when you are trying to take their base.

And it's Anti-MAX capability indoors is very good. If you can shoot a MAX 2 times with a deci then you can figure out how to shoot the MAX 3 times... unless the MAX is working with infantry he has serious problems. Of course if you stand still and trade shots with an AI MAX you won't get all 3 shots off... with a deci you won't get both shots off with that tactic either...

And your claim that the Striker is good Anti-MAX indoors is just wrong... it won't lock-on indoors and in dumb fire mode it's COF is horrific even if the shooter is motionless and crouching. Also you have to score 6-7 hits to drop the MAX... LOL. You are better off with HA loaded with AP rounds.

BadAsh · 2004-02-20, 12:47 PM

Originally Posted by Krinsath

The Phoenix in particular is not a big problem. Find cover that hides your position from the missiles. For instance, parking directly next to the walls of a base makes it well-nigh impossible to be hit unless they have LOS to you (in which case you're screwed anyway).

I disagree with this first part of your statement.. the Phoenix can easily smack anything in the CY of a base from the base tower... if you own the tower you own the base with Phoenix Missiles. But to your second statement...

Originally Posted by Krinsath

Rare are the Phoenix users who can get the missile to dive down correctly before you've repaired and moved on....but again, if you see that many missiles, you're better off grabbing a rifle instead of a tank...I know you won't feel special anymore since you don't have your big armored tank, but believe me, you will survive.

Yeah, I can't vouch for every goober that grabs a Phoenix... when playing TR and VS I'm amazed at how people try to use them... A skilled Phoenix user is a scary thing... a coordinated group of Phoenix users are a crushing force against a seiged base.

Nosferatu · 2004-02-20, 01:08 PM

I think you'l find that phoenix is the least powerfull missile in the game, along with that yes its guided by its still almost impossible to hit a reaver at full speed when a homing missile can.. then theres the reloading. so i think youl find its hardly unbalanced, NC are pretty crap when it comes to aa because our max is bugged and its hard to use phoenix except in dumb fire whm reavers stand still. Frankly get over it, i keep getting qwiped out by lashers every goddamn second because they're wildly overpowered comapred to my now crappy jackhammer, dont you think we should be concetrating on more important things.

Veteran · 2004-02-20, 01:52 PM

I refer to all the sage arguments about Phoenix's amazing superiority that were true before Decimator got moved to AV.

Phoenix is indeed the king.

TheN00b · 2004-02-20, 01:53 PM

And it's Anti-MAX capability indoors is very good. If you can shoot a MAX 2 times with a deci then you can figure out how to shoot the MAX 3 times... unless the MAX is working with infantry he has serious problems. Of course if you stand still and trade shots with an AI MAX you won't get all 3 shots off... with a deci you won't get both shots off with that tactic either...

Ash, you do know that you have to reload after every shot?

Lithpope · 2004-02-20, 02:00 PM

Originally Posted by Nosferatu

yes its guided by its still almost impossible to hit a reaver at full speed when a homing missile can

Actually, you are wrong there. A full speed Reaver will simply out range the Striker missle. The Striker round will pursue but NEVER hit, it will run out of range and self destruct before catching that Reaver.

Krinsath · 2004-02-20, 02:08 PM

Originally Posted by BadAsh

I disagree with this first part of your statement.. the Phoenix can easily smack anything in the CY of a base from the base tower... if you own the tower you own the base with Phoenix Missiles. But to your second statement...

If you are directly next to the wall, meaning not in the courtyard, but next to the wall, you have to get the missile up high first and make it dive down at a very steep angle. It's *possible* but very, very difficult, as evidenced by the fact that Phoenix missiles never take out my TR Lightning unless I'm in the open field. Sure, if they're on the other side of the base, easy as pie. If they have LOS (like on top of a watch tower) then yes. Those are the minority of circumstances (well, the part about them being on the other side of the base may not be, but that goes to my next point...).

Originally Posted by BadAsh

Yeah, I can't vouch for every goober that grabs a Phoenix... when playing TR and VS I'm amazed at how people try to use them... A skilled Phoenix user is a scary thing... a coordinated group of Phoenix users are a crushing force against a seiged base.

True of any group of coordinated AV troops. Of course, AV troops are useless against MA and HA and SA infantry. We return to the fundamental idea of "Lots of AV means you shouldn't get your vehicle"...just like "Lots of vehicles means you shouldn't be grabbing your Punisher and Sweeper"...use common sense. If you can't muster the vehicles to counter the AV, your vehicles are countered. Follow the equation, armor needs infantry support to take out anti-armor infantry...so the regular infantry is the tactic needed. Believe it or not, there are battles where the Mag/Van/Prowler are not the best weapon. Swarms of AV in an area would make any such battle a prime example.

Rbstr · 2004-02-20, 02:20 PM

Originally Posted by Krinsath

The Phoenix is not the end all super killer. Even driving my little Lightning, I worry more about Lancers than I do Phoenixes. Sure, a swarm of Phoenix missiles is a frightening thing, but I do believe it sends a message...

"Don't Drive Vehicles Here"

If there are 60 AV troopers in the area, I don't care what empire it is...you're an idiot for bringing in a vehicle...unless you're bringing 60 of them. Armor will lose to dug-in, prepared infantry. Been a rule of warfare since the tank's inception. The strength of armor is in not going in the teeth of the enemy, but moving AROUND the enemy and attacking less protected flanks (ask the French about their Maginot Line, which was a quite formiddable fortress, except the German armor just went AROUND it).

If you see a whole bunch of Phoenix missiles and you can't muster the vehicles to counter it, get an infiltration suit and go to town killing these Phoenix users...or get a sniper rifle and flank and rack up 30+ kills from the defenseless missile users.

Yes, your tanks will be useless...that's why the cert is called "Anti-Vehicle", nice to see it actually do it's job for once.

The Phoenix in particular is not a big problem. Find cover that hides your position from the missiles. For instance, parking directly next to the walls of a base makes it well-nigh impossible to be hit unless they have LOS to you (in which case you're screwed anyway). Rare are the Phoenix users who can get the missile to dive down correctly before you've repaired and moved on....but again, if you see that many missiles, you're better off grabbing a rifle instead of a tank...I know you won't feel special anymore since you don't have your big armored tank, but believe me, you will survive.

Couldn't have put it better

I realy disagee when you say the phx is good indoors, it takea a horenduos amount of time to get those 3 shots off, even if you sneak up behind them, they hav pelanty of time to run and kill you no matter what max type it is.

It sucks at AI taking 5 missles to kill an agile

It takes over something like 15 pheonix missles to take an AMS, if you have one repairguy going the ams is safe

Any of th eAV can do etter at all of the things, they just need line of sight, to do it, i don't thinks thats a bad trade off for having better weapons

Fenrys · 2004-02-20, 03:23 PM

/me beats on the oily spot where teh dead horse usta to be.

BDMJ · 2004-02-20, 03:42 PM

The only reason I use phoenix now is that it offers more damage per box than the deci. It is the worst solo AV weapon, but the best in a zerg. To be honest, I would really enjoy being forced to have LOS, but being able to set the missle to dumbfire mode midflight. You are complaining now, but you would not believe how much more effective the phoenix would be if it had those characteristics.