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PSU: Where Vanguard drive YOU.
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2012-11-15, 06:09 AM
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[Ignore Me] #31 | |||
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Private
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Really though, I do not care for how porous PS2 bases are. It seems difficult to mount a successful defense in PS2 when both ground and air assaults are viable from all angles. On a separate note, I wish there were more discrete base structures and spawn points, like the simple towers dotting the landscape of PS1. They gave small units opportunities to effect change, and made for fun little CQC skirmishes. |
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2012-11-15, 10:20 AM
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[Ignore Me] #32 | |||
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Lieutenant Colonel
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2012-11-15, 02:47 PM
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[Ignore Me] #33 | ||
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Sergeant
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I honestly think people need to take a solid moment and really think about what they did and didn't like about PS1 bases and what they do and do not like about PS2 bases without going all knee jerk if we're going to see any useful changes to PS2 bases. I'll try and lay out some of the pluses and minuses I see for both games.
------ PS1 bases were small. This is both a positive and a negative for PS1. Defenders had a centralized and well defended spawn room (by virtue of it being deep inside the base). That spawn room spit you out at the center of the base. It took very little time to get from the spawn room onto a base wall so you could defend. It also took a relatively small amount of time to reposition from one side of the base to the other if you needed to defend from another assault on the other gate. The negative aspect came when the attackers had broken through the main gate. Once they were in it took them very little time to get to your spawn room and control console. In PS2 the bases are HUGE! At first I thought it was going to be great, and I think the devs thought so too...but it just takes so long to get to a position to defend and then to reposition. I dunno what to do about this except move the spawn room inside the base at all major facilities....like the players have already figured out. Why else do you see a friendly sunderer parked inside the shield at most bases? It still doesn't solve the problem of how to get clear over to the other side of the base to defend some objective (beyond jump pads which have their own problems). ------ You knew where the attackers were coming from in PS1. There were only 3 traditional routes of attack. Through one of the two main gates or the back door. A fourth, non-traditional route was by air drop from galaxy or other aircraft but it was normally going to come at an easily identifiable target, the back door or a centralized on top of the main building. In PS2 you really don't seem to get much of an idea where the attackers are going to come from. Not only do you get the gates (and you can get sunderers that ignore them) but you've got light assault bounding over the walls, attackers leaping all about the base via jump pads and you've usually got 2-3 outlying enemy spawn bases that spawn vehicles. That last bit kind of gets me. Part of what, to me, worked so well about the tower and base mechanics of PS1 was that the towers did not spawn vehicles. It slowed down the attackers and forced them to decide whether they wanted to zerg the wall on foot or drive back from another base with a more potent weapon. I haven't seen any PS2 battle take as long as most PS1 battles yet excpet at the Impact Site on Indar...and I think it's got a lot to do which how easy it is to grab a vehicle right next to the base you're attacking. ------ To the folks who hated PS1 bases I'm sure you're mostly thinking about all those tiny corridors with connecting rooms, and I'd agree with you. It was frustrating and mind numbing. There was no strategy and no tactics. You were just firing down tunnels trying not not too get too much grief. It was all about getting more attackers through the choke points through to the spawn room and CC than the defenders could get out of the spawn room. I have no idea what to do about that. I'm sure the devs thought that moving it all outside and then later cluttering it all up would help. I'll admit it's more interesting but some of the other design mistakes make it just as frustrating and annoying. There was one tiny bright spot in the PS1 interior fight. The vehicle bay a the tech plant. Man that place was fun to fight in. ------ Honestly, I think that the two biggest mistakes in this game were decentralizing the spawn point and adding the Light Assault class. I know LA isn't going anywhere and at this point it shouldn't go away, but it added an element to the attackers (and in biolabs to the defenders) that makes the flow of the fight that much more difficult to figure out. And dear Smed, please lock down the jump pads and elevators to the defending empire for a week or two (well, cept for at Bio Labs...kindof have to be open to everybody there). I'd really like to see what that does to defense as a test. Have at it, pick apart what I've got to say. I'm here for the long haul and just want to see the game made better. |
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2012-11-15, 03:18 PM
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[Ignore Me] #34 | ||
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Private
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When you have multiple large facilities that are almost completely identical, I think the man has a right to say 'cookie cutter'. It would push the new players even farther out of reach, but if every single base was different and unique (no small task), it wouldn't be so simple to guide your swarm to outside vehicle shields, then inside gen, then to SCU.
3 simple tasks to capturing any facility wowweee What about some lore orientation. BIO FACILITY -Disarm biological defense component -"Control Points" would be referenced to as Experimental Weapons Lab A/B secured or something similar. Some really interesting shit could go down. The Amp stations when they cap set out a large emp looking pulse. or maybe AMP pulse haha.... What if that destroyed all enemy vehicles within the surrounding influence. Or what if this was a defensive strategy that took preparation time. So in context you are defending your AMP station, your barely holding out, so you designate a squad of 12 that has to be within the vicinity of the trigger device for ~5 minutes. This would be a objective located in a building on the courtyard for instance, so once the event starts, the opposing factions know they seriously need to get in there and stop that fast. Just examples really. Why the 3-step capture any base layout. Get creative damnit. You get the idear. |
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2012-11-15, 03:42 PM
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[Ignore Me] #35 | |||
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Contributor Lieutenant Colonel
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2012-11-15, 09:04 PM
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[Ignore Me] #36 | ||
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Master Sergeant
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I like them, they look great and function right now. I would REALLY like to see more underground spawn points that can get the defenders to the capture point without going outside where vehicles reign.
I think a different type of base or facility would be a good addition. It'd be nice to see an old Dropship Facility from PS1 revamped, and I mean the inside too. It'd be neat to see the same base layout in PS2 somewhere.
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2012-11-16, 05:50 AM
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[Ignore Me] #38 | |||
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Major
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But having that sad I like the bases. And I would probably not quit playing the game because of there design. |
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2012-11-16, 06:03 AM
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[Ignore Me] #39 | ||
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Corporal
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IMO there is nothing wrong with the building and defense locations. However as I have stated in other posts the issue is more in the finer details, walls between turrets are rarely manned and only act as something for light assaults to jet pack over. Reason being, because of the location of the jump pads and the steps up to the walls are one and the same. We need easier access to the walls with either steps or hover pads located midway on the walls inside bases.
Jump pads also annoy me, in fact the whole thing is silly, I'm not sure if they are there to help the defenders or the attackers. Get rid of em and give those multitudes of sunderers (on both the defender's and attackers something else to do) ie. Think of all the sides you never get attacked from in a base purely because they can attack from one side and have ease of access to the whole facility. Let players spread out the fight we are not that dumb. As for tech plants the majority need an overhaul on how they are perimeter wise. But I'm guessing that will come with time. |
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2012-11-16, 08:34 AM
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[Ignore Me] #40 | |||
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Lieutenant General
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PS1 bases: + Effective CY walls + Effective CY shield, but passable + Availability of Combat Engineering + Clear function of rooms + Multi-level combat flow + Completely separate infantry fight + Good CY maneuvrability (save Interlink bridge near BFR terminal w.r.t. Sunderers) + Good turret angles + Decent cover for crouched infantry on walls (also when repairing turrets) + Good fire lines + Decent merlon size + Protected stairwells + Doors protecting from explosive spam + IFF doors + Keep with high ground + Choke points in several rings / levels + All vitals in base accessible from the inside + NTU drain (winning by neutralising through extended siege) + Resecure is instant + Resecure can be done by strike forces (concentrated push on defensive weak point) + Base paralisation can be done by strike forces (one wave attack (and hold)) + Central spawn + Destructible spawn + Destructible generator (sabotage) + High ground with doors in a location where tanks can't fire easily (not everywhere though) + Good cover for CY AMSes for both defenders and attackers + Bridges from keep to walls without going through pure ground vehicle terrain + Linear order of defense and clear objectives to fall back to in steps (outpost approach -> wall siege -> courtyard fight, keep defense (lobby / stairs / BD) -> internal defense (gen / spawns / CC), which can be done in reverse direction as well + Clear advantage from Gal Drop + Infiltrator has a role + 3-5 exits on completely different sides of the base + SOI preventing HART drops, clear influence area for CE and communications (/b broadcast) + 'Epic' defense and siege combat + Fights you could really make a difference in + Pain fields in spawns and generator + Incentives to kill spawns over camping them or killing the generator (risk to losing base hack, loss of vehicle acquisition) + Availability of equipment and other terminals + Base benefits + Lattice sharing of benefits: can cut them off with tactical strike: generator hold + Multiple Airpads + Vehicle resupply station + Base defenses and systems can be deactivated by subtle sabotage + Some automated defense turrets (indicate threat size and direction) - Poor Anti-Air cover (roofs, not the turrets) - Lack of merlon numbers - Bio Lab generator position (least liked base feature in PS1 because fight would be over too soon) - Narrow corridors and lack of cover in said corridors. - Relatively narrow doors in combination with AoE weapons (was fixed by toning down AoE damage and stacking) - Lack of cover at vehicle pads - Small number of vehicle pads resulting in queue - Poor transition zone between outdoor and indoor combat (lacking some cover) - Lacking quantity of CY cover - Slightly cramped CY (aside from DSC, especially noticable around vpad and BFR term) - No effective indoor-outdoor AA (AoE) weapons to fire at hovering aircraft camping with AoE spam weapons (rocket pods) or massive armour (Galaxy Gunship) - Cave lock providing all module benefits - Capital shields: reduced lattice options and forcing unnatural flow to the point of making any attack impossible (Ceryshen bridge + Galaxy Gunship), too easy Flail camp sites and retreat locations, removing the siege part of a fight or even the entire fight because there'd not be defenders in the capital, too safe area for storing modules, shield killed people who were holding it if owners of capital regained sub-capitals - Distance between bases at times too large to sustain a vehicle assault PS1 outposts (towers): + High ground + easily reached walkways, turrets, CC directly from spawns through interior and short outdoor exposure time + IFF Doors + Clear advantage from Gal Drop + Can be taken and resecured in a single, concerted effort + Choke points to use for defense (to keep attackers away from CC) + Choke points to use for attack (ground level in particular, but also to keep defenders away from CC) + Infiltrator has a role + Relatively cramped, unsuited for large groups + Good turret angles + Multi-level design + 4-6 exits to tower + SOI preventing HART Drops + clear influence radius for CE - Relatively cramped, unsuited for large groups - No transition zone to the outside - Third person wall humping - Exits all face the same sides and are in the same vertical line. - Prone to AoE spam prior to AoE nerf - No effective indoor-outdoor AA (AoE) weapons to fire at hovering aircraft camping with AoE spam weapons (rocket pods) or massive armour (Galaxy Gunship) - No SOI broadcast chat - No repair and resupply facility for ground vehicles at any tower (otoh, made Lodestar useful - though Lodestar suffered from lack of acquisition sites) PS2 bases: + Good roof cover against aircraft over walls + Door shields to prevent tube-camping + Cover around and over most vehicle terminals + Lots of cover for infantry in the courtyard + Multiple vehicle terminals + Multiple airpads + Windows can't be fired through if present + Generator overload process provides time to react + Spawn room close to some sections of the wall + Bases closer together - Can't reach walls from keep by means of bridges or walkways - Many holes in walls and can be ignored by Jet Pack infantry and are often used against the defenders. - Not enough door shields and no diagonal firing lines from door shields (bubble design would be better) - Courtyard too large to man the walls - Courtyard extremely hard to navigate with vehicles and even closed off to vehicles in some areas - Many buildings don't seem to have a clear function - Buildings with multi-level and high ground are rendered semi-useless because most of the time, important features aren't found in these larger buildings, but in little inconspicuous and indefensible shacks - Spawn room far away from remainder of walls. - Direct line of sight for vehicles on spawn room exits - Only intermittent battlements - Attacker places self between spawns and vital sections of base by just entering the base. - Covered area behind merlons is taken up by support structures - Gate Shield can't always be passed through by attackers on foot - Some gate shields have tiny corridors for infantry to the side of it - Turrets are situational - Turrets can only fire at specific targets - Turrets often have extremely restricted horizontal and vertical angles - Engineers trying to repair turrets have no cover at all - Poor, simple multi-level design, if present at all, when present - Any choke points useful for normal infantry is rendered useless due to presence and nigh exclusive use of Light Assault in these areas, due to the lack of ceilings in these "maze" areas (like tech plant control console area) - Lack of real choke points - Even narrower doors than in PS1 - No single strike and hold/resecure targets - Distance between SCU and spawns - Lack of clear map correlation between random generator and what they keep up. - Can't use sabotage to paralyse a base - No proper outdoor-indoor flow - Frequently disconnected battle flow (flow is disconnected and interrupted by means of teleporter tubes, jump pads) - Too easy to acquire (heavy) tanks nearby and lots of them as all players have access to them. Little if any logistical advantage for defenders. - Little reason to use Galaxy Drops as there are no "single wave" objectives (meat grind required) and high ground is faster to reach with Light Assault while there's little TTK difference between rexo and light assault PS2 Outposts: + Painfields to clear spawns after flipping of base + Decent AA available + In some cases, decent use of terrain in terms of high ground - Extremely cramped spawn rooms despite 6x the populace per empire - In some cases 1 or 2 exits, 4 at max - Many outposts surrounded by high ground. One does not build an outpost that is to be defended in a valley. - Sometimes turrets are situated on ground level in the middle of a confined space and have no firing lines or use at all. - Control point holders (both defenders and attackers) have to sit exposed in very open areas around a Control Console as the CC is usualy situated in the middle of a large, open room, if not outside - Lots of windows without protection can easily be spammed in to by vehicles - No single strike targets - Spawns are located at the edge of a facility and directly lead outside of the facility, leaving only one viable exit in case of a siege - Next to no defense against jetpacks - Walls can't be manned - Walls funnel defenders to a few openings, rather than attackers, instead, the walls provide cover for attackers to approach the base, especially jet pack infantry can just approach and then hop over them to surprise defenders - Lack of high ground accessible directly from spawns - High ground lost to attackers swiftly and used against defenders often at the first attack wave due to jetpacks - Turrets are hard to reach - Engineers trying to repair turrets have no cover at all - Can't get back into spawn rooms that have vertical exits - No coherency between separate buildings - Too many entrances into buildings (up to 8 or 9 into a single room, counting windows) - Usualy no reason to use Galaxy Drops, at all - Even narrower doors than in PS1 List isn't complete, but I think you can see where it is going. The funny thing is, PS2 outposts share a lot of things with PS1 cave buildings, PS1 cave buildings have a few more redeeming qualities and a few more bad points though. Last edited by Figment; 2012-11-16 at 08:44 AM. |
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2012-11-16, 09:45 AM
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[Ignore Me] #42 | ||
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Banned
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Some more negatives of PS2 bases for Figment's list.
-Alot of the main base buildings are unused (hollow in many cases) or don't offer anything for the fight. As Trammell Issaac once said "We want everything we put into the game, to fit into the game. It needs to be there for a reason. To fit into the lore. To be useable.". Yeah well nice FAIL Trammel. -If you are going to have 3-5 different objectives to capture you should probably make them have to be captured in a specific sequence or order. That way I at least can know where the enemies are going to try and attack down to one or two spots. I should have to resecure those objectives in the same sequence, and push the enemies back where they came from. -Fighting in PS2 bases feels like going up against Velociraptor's in Jurassic Park. You are walking through a field with your squad and then all of a sudden a guy gets picked off standing in the back but you never even hear it. Then BOOM you get hit from an entirely different direction and two more guys are down. Now you are in dissaray and are running through a field with velociraptors chasing you. You know you can't defend yourself because you cant see them, you know you are never going to know which direction they are coming from. You just have to keep moving and don't stop. But then your dead, you got clawed from behind. Oh and btw another pack of Raptors already has your spawn room surrounded so dont bother trying to enter the field again. -Light Assault should only be able to enter the base from very specific locations. If they can breach walls, there should only be one or two locations on that wall they can reach with jetpacks (unless they glide off a cliff or something). You should at least be able to say "Go defend this and this location in case Light Assault tries to get in". Right now it's hard to figure out a direction of battle. -Spawnrooms should be like in the movie Aliens Versus Predators. Humans find a base hidden under the ice. They enter this pyramid underground and find out its a fortress. They go to its center deep underground and find its an alien spawn room. To direct the combat and serve its purpose, the base is built to protect that quenn laying the eggs so that combat can ensue with the Predators. The walls move and the base shift's to lead them towards one another, but gives them enough catwalks and holes to pop out of to make the fight exciting. This whole base is designed as hunting grounds to see who the better hunter is. If you are an alien you want to make it to the exit so you can breed and take over the planet. If you are a Predator you want to kill the Queen. Either way you are going to face each other, its very hard to hide from or circumvent the enemy. Its not going to be easy there will be many rooms, many traps to go through. But if you get down into the spawn room for example and take out the Queen, you get the mark of the hunter because you deserved it, especially if the spawn room has lots of Aliens coming out of it. (Ok I just woke up, thats all of my morning rant for now) Last edited by Ritual; 2012-11-16 at 09:54 AM. |
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2012-11-16, 11:28 AM
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[Ignore Me] #43 | |||
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Staff Sergeant
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All of the memories that stand out to me from Planetside were in situations like successfully defending the walls of a base from an onslaught or gal dropping with a strike force on what we thought might be a weak point and ending a 3-4 hour stalemate by killing and holding the basement gen from wave after wave of defenders. Hell, resecuring the control console with seconds remaining on the hack while coordinating with other outfits after the zerg failed for 14 minutes. Maybe I haven't played the Beta long enough but the bases do not seem to support that addictive feeling. |
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2012-11-16, 11:35 AM
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[Ignore Me] #44 | ||
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Lieutenant Colonel
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1000s of years in the future.
All other sudden in a short span of less than 10 years - humanity completely forgets how to build doors. Odd
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Wherever you went - Here you are. |
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2012-11-16, 11:41 AM
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[Ignore Me] #45 | |||
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Lieutenant Colonel
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