I stand corrected by the Harasser - Page 3

Figment · 2013-06-13, 09:22 AM

Originally Posted by AThreatToYou

My biggest problem with the Harasser is that it is now the #1 threat to my Flash. I rarely die to anything but Harassers in my Flash and it makes me a little sad angry.

ATV should have been more like the PS1 Fury from the start. :/

And the driver should probably get some sort of vehicle shield, because the driver is just too vulnerable on an ATV atm.

AThreatToYou · 2013-06-13, 10:26 AM

Originally Posted by Figment

ATV should have been more like the PS1 Fury from the start. :/

And the driver should probably get some sort of vehicle shield, because the driver is just too vulnerable on an ATV atm.

echoing my complaints

its absurd that every single time I die before my Flash does, even when I'm hit by tank shells.
note that I use Wraith cloak. Harassers seem to be able to see me cloaked. Yeah they probably can't but they are so good at killing me when I am supposedly cloaked.

Wahooo · 2013-06-13, 11:02 AM

Originally Posted by Rolfski

I'm not shouting out loud that the Harasser needs a nerf btw. It should stay a fun vehicle to play and if any rebalancing needs to be redone on it, it should probably be on the counter side, like making Sunderers a bit more survivable.

Why are harassers more of a threat to Sunderers than MBTs? How would upping the survivability of Sundies be a nerf to harassers if they are the new big threat it is going to be a bigger nerf to everything else as well.

Rolfski · 2013-06-13, 08:26 PM

Originally Posted by PredatorFour

Rofl..-ski , again the only person saying that is you. The harrasser isn't OP as it drops easily as Newsith has pointed out, machine gun fire really damages the vehicle. Once most soldiers know this, they'll be repelled alot quicker.

Don't be a dick, thinking you're funny messing around with my name. Show some class please, we have forum etiquette for a reason.

And didn't you read my words? I'm not calling loud out for a nerf with these vehicles but when people are getting consistently 300+ kills with it, that is something to look at imo. Either effective counter strategies haven't been discovered yet as Newsith suggested or something is out of balance. I don't believe too much in small arms fire as a counter tbh. Smart pilots will go composite armor that is very effective to small arms and explosives alike. It will take around 290 standard bullets and 4 standard launcher rockets point blank range from the side to take out a level 4 blockade armor Harasser. That's usually enough for any decent driver to get in and out safely. And as Harassers can get quickly repaired when on the move, they're quickly back in with full health, making them though to fight.

Originally Posted by Wahooo

Why are harassers more of a threat to Sunderers than MBTs? How would upping the survivability of Sundies be a nerf to harassers if they are the new big threat it is going to be a bigger nerf to everything else as well.

Because Harassers can often get in and out safely while MBT's can't. Fast patrolling, hill climbing Harassers also have an easier time finding and spotting Sunderers and we all know that a discovered Sunderer is most of the time a dead Sunderer.
As a counter to that, I wouldn't mind cloaked Sunderers actually, they seem to make sense.

Whiteagle · 2013-06-13, 08:32 PM

...Did somebody say something about seperate Driver/Main Gun controls?

Rolfski · 2013-06-14, 02:43 AM

Very funny. There are tons of videos floating around to illustrate my case btw. Might as well use this guy you all love so much as a fresh example :

That's 82 certs in over 9 min which is really nothing special: Decent driver + composite armor = farming machine. You're basically tanky and mobile enough to quickly go around corners before any concentrated fire will get you down. And your incredible fast repair time while staying mobile means your down time is minimal and you can quickly get to safe places to heal up and stay undefeated.

Again, I'm not shouting everything needs to be nerfed, but I'm curious what counters are going to turn out effective because besides A2G (non existent nowadays) and counter Harassers, I'm not seeing too many. Even a single mine won't take them out.

Figment · 2013-06-14, 04:59 AM

Originally Posted by Rolfski

Because Harassers can often get in and out safely while MBT's can't.

That's just because they stand still and have to start accelerating again.

If a Harasser tries to play stationary turret in this game, they die fast as well.

With so many threats, sitting still is death. Unless you have superior spam numbers and can fall back and repair while others cover.

typhaon · 2013-06-14, 05:12 AM

I'm cool with them being dangerous, fast, and agile.... don't need to change any of those things... I just feel they are WAAAAAY too durable.

One of the things I'd suggest to SOE - when you're balancing... assume full theory-crafting and maximum levels... then go from there.

Rolfski · 2013-06-14, 03:11 PM

Originally Posted by Figment

That's just because they stand still and have to start accelerating again.

If a Harasser tries to play stationary turret in this game, they die fast as well.

With so many threats, sitting still is death. Unless you have superior spam numbers and can fall back and repair while others cover.

Well, that's exactly my point. Harassers are so deadly because they are so mobile, which is rather hard to counter if they are also tanky enough to come out alive and can really quickly repair themselves when on the move.

Belhade · 2013-06-14, 03:11 PM

I saw the most awesome thing from a Harasser the other day. I was gunning in a Sundy in rough, broken terrain when an enemy convoy came into the area. We were trying to stay hidden in the rocks and crags, when suddenly a Harasser came flying through the air - straight over top of the Sundy, in a barrel roll, trying to fire at us upside down! I was laughing so wildly I could barely get a few shots off with the Bulldog. Truly a sight to behold, and enough to justify the Harry as it is.

Figment · 2013-06-14, 07:44 PM

Originally Posted by Rolfski

Well, that's exactly my point. Harassers are so deadly because they are so mobile, which is rather hard to counter if they are also tanky enough to come out alive and can really quickly repair themselves when on the move.

Which wouldn't be an issue with MBTs if they had dedicated drivers. That's why the debate keeps returning. The only reason they are considered to slow to be fun to drive (by some numbnuts) is the constant stopping and slow acceleration these people do as single players, that gives them the impression that the vehicle is unsuited for dynamic combat as they never got to use their guns at those speeds (their combat is full of start up stop back up stop start up stop instead of "full speed ahead Scotty") and they never will get to.

The people that point out those directional damage things keep thinking from a stationary unit perspective - they assume they will get hit because they're too incompetent drivers to dodge missiles on the move. They completely forget about them not making their opponents lead them as a target because they hardly ever move about.

Whiteagle · 2013-06-14, 08:06 PM

Originally Posted by Figment

Which wouldn't be an issue with MBTs if they had dedicated drivers. That's why the debate keeps returning. The only reason they are considered to slow to be fun to drive (by some numbnuts) is the constant stopping and slow acceleration these people do as single players, that gives them the impression that the vehicle is unsuited for dynamic combat as they never got to use their guns at those speeds (their combat is full of start up stop back up stop start up stop instead of "full speed ahead Scotty") and they never will get to.

The people that point out those directional damage things keep thinking from a stationary unit perspective - they assume they will get hit because they're too incompetent drivers to dodge missiles on the move. They completely forget about them not making their opponents lead them as a target because they hardly ever move about.

Quoted for truth man, it's astounding to see how different armored combat works when an MBT needs seperate people to control it.

Just last night I was playing the Original Planetside, and there were Vanguards doing DRIVE-BYS!
Why?
Because one guy could focus on actually driving, while another was shooting thing!

Rolfski · 2013-06-15, 06:08 AM

Originally Posted by Figment

Which wouldn't be an issue with MBTs if they had dedicated drivers.

This is exactly what I mean with EVERY vehicle topic in this forum getting hijacked and ending up in whining about PS1 dedicated driver mechanics.

It's tiring and made this whole PSU community to a down-right hostile environment for newer players with a fresh look on the franchise. It has become to a level that I would never recommend friends, new to this game, to this community. I feel sorry to Hamma and Chip (who's my team mate) about this, honestly, but if you're new to Planetside, PSU has become a community you should avoid.

Dedicated drivers have their use yes, but balancing Harassers should be about casual players that make up the major part of this game.

Figment · 2013-06-15, 06:57 AM

Originally Posted by Rolfski

This is exactly what I mean with EVERY vehicle topic in this forum getting hijacked and ending up in whining about PS1 dedicated driver mechanics.

How is it whining? It's simply an observation and solution suggestion that is repeatedly suggested because it's so obvious a solution to all the problems.

In fact, the one whining right now, is you. On this particular topic, as usual, I might add.

It's tiring and made this whole PSU community to a down-right hostile environment for newer players with a fresh look on the franchise.

YOU are the one acting hostile. Not us.

It has become to a level that I would never recommend friends, new to this game, to this community. I feel sorry to Hamma and Chip (who's my team mate) about this, honestly, but if you're new to Planetside, PSU has become a community you should avoid.

That's your sentiment and I'd say your sentiment is rather biased. Just because you're tired of hearing it doesn't make it less true or less needed to be said. So if you want to sod off, sod off. Otherwise accept that there are people that will always keep suggesting this.

I personally get pretty sick and tired of people making "dead horse" denounciations. Old arguments aren't per definition false. Old solutions aren't per definition worse. Old doesn't equal obsolete. Stubborness doesn't make right. What's worse is when people assume it's obsolete just because of age. Prejudices like that should never enter debates. Just because you tire of hearing something.

Dedicated drivers have their use yes, but balancing Harassers should be about casual players that make up the major part of this game.

The entire premise of casual players has nothing to do with balancing anything or whether something should be dedicated or not. Balancing has to do with unit interaction. Dedicating roles is a method of balancing.

In fact, per the regular argument of "casual players", Harassers would not be used by casuals at all since it can't be driven and gunned solo, which would mean that casual players would have no interest in the Harasser balancing aside from the "getting shot in the face repeatedly" part because a team > solo play.

And last I checked, nothing stopped casual players from teamplay (our entire outfit has always been laid back casual players, but guided by some with a purpose to meaningful and satisfactory fights and the units used were always dedicated driving multi-crew units), so I don't see the issue or why it's relevant.

Make your point.

From a balance perspective it makes no sense that the lightest crewable unit has dedicated roles while the heaviest does not.

Btw, I find it insulting that you think you're the only person thinking of casual players. I always keep every possible target group in mind with everything I suggest and I can pretty much guarantee you that those target groups are much more varied in intellect, group composition and dedication to playing the game than most of SOE and other players ever consider due to the solutions presented by those other groups usualy lacking for solo, small group, large group or smart or dumb players. Usualy they are argumented with extremely niche, superficial and assumed trademarks.

Soloplay has its place, but not in crewable vehicles because that has never resulted in good gameplay and PS2 is pretty extreme evidence of that at times. The broken balance particularly shows in specific situations of numerical overrepresentation, counter availability and camp situations, while those defending it usualy trivialise any problem as non-existent or by denegratingly blaming someone else's skill level. It's extremely frustrating to see that sort of argumentation.

Rolfski · 2013-06-15, 09:14 AM

Dude, you seriously have no idea what you're talking about. I like this community, don't get me wrong or otherwise I wouldn't be here ( I even have a rather high respect for you), but I have seen quite a few people around me (I won't name them) getting put off by the sour, negative, PS1 obsessed mentality that seems to rear it's ugly head here from time to time, to a level that they stopped checking this forum altogether.

Back on topic: As for Harasser, there's no use discussing it any more imo. You already officially hijacked this topic into a "MBT's should have dedicated drivers" thread.