Tank balance thread (because magrider)

[PredatorFour]

Originally Posted by Bruttal

Well I have to say I don't think the new Magrider has the laser type cannon now, it lobs plasma shells so sniping doesn't work the same as it did in ps1. Also Dodging a shell that you cant see coming because of fixed view isn't even possible.

Well of course you wont dodge a shell you cant see coming rofl. If you are looking at the tank you are duelling at a distance, you CAN dodge their shells, even with a fixed view.

Its a shame they changed the gun, they seemed to of changed most things that were good in the original ;(

[fod]

i still dont understand why they couldnt have just given the mag a normal turret
oh well im still going to kill everyone with it

[CutterJohn]

The one major weakness of the mag is NOT the locked forward gun. They can compensate for that with additional maneuverability.

The Magriders weakness will be its inability to fire from behind any cover at all, due to the low position of its barrel. Normal tanks have the turret up top for a reason.

[TAA]

Originally Posted by Azren

What is this BS I keep reading again and again? Since when is it a bonus to be forced in one position if you want to hit something? Also, since when can't the other tanks turn to enjoy the same "bonus"?

Check out the hover tanks in BF2142. They were the same as the magrider - fixed forward facing turret, able to strafe, less armored than the tracked tanks on the opposing side.

They stood their own nicely. The ability to strafe is incredible. The main way a tracked tank avoids an enemy in a 1vs1 long range tank fight is to move back or forward. A hover tank can move erratically between shots, first moving diagnonally, then next time strafing sideways, next time backwards, etc. It is easy for the driver of a hover tank to compensate for his own movements because they know exactly how they moved in relation to the target. It is harder for the enemy to compensate for this erratic movement and hit a hover tank accurately. Furthermore in close or medium range a hover tank can strafe faster than a tracked tank can turn, meaning that the hover tank is always firing at the flanks or rear of the tracked tank but receiving fire against its front.

[Klockan]

Originally Posted by Kran De Loy

Wait, where was it stated that the Prowler had the weakest overall armor? I thought it was the Mag, but the Mag has the bonus of being able to always face front rather than having to expose it's rear/sides to able to maneuver around like the Vanny or the Prowler.

Not including weapons (the weapons on the tanks are perfectly balanced imo). I figure that for balance reasons the Mag wont be able to strafe or reverse at top speed. I only hope they get better traction for maneuvering than they did in PS1.

Think of the Mag more like a tank that can turn it's forward armor to face any direction quickly while still keeping momentum in whichever direction it wants to be moving rather than thinking about it as a floating top half of a normal tank.

That means that the Mag trades Heavy Armoring and Top Spee.d/Acceleratio.n for this style of maneuvering. However in addition to those two trade offs it also has a fixed forward cannon so the Mag can ONLY fire at what it's facing.

Having a fixed cannon means that you can't keep your armor forward while aiming backwards etc, it is much easier to keep your front armor where you want it to be if you have a turret. The positive is that you can strafe, the negative is that your cannon is less maneuverable so it is harder to look around. Those two are roughly equal and thus the magrider doesn't have to be any weaker than the other tanks in PS2. In PS1 the magrider could both strafe and it had a movable turret so then it had to be weaker, but in PS2 there is no need to keep it weaker than the other tanks.

Originally Posted by TAA

Check out the hover tanks in BF2142. They were the same as the magrider - fixed forward facing turret, able to strafe, less armored than the tracked tanks on the opposing side.

They stood their own nicely. The ability to strafe is incredible. The main way a tracked tank avoids an enemy in a 1vs1 long range tank fight is to move back or forward. A hover tank can move erratically between shots, first moving diagnonally, then next time strafing sideways, next time backwards, etc. It is easy for the driver of a hover tank to compensate for his own movements because they know exactly how they moved in relation to the target. It is harder for the enemy to compensate for this erratic movement and hit a hover tank accurately. Furthermore in close or medium range a hover tank can strafe faster than a tracked tank can turn, meaning that the hover tank is always firing at the flanks or rear of the tracked tank but receiving fire against its front.

The hover tanks in BF2142 weren't at all weaker than the tracked tanks, they had exactly the same stats except for one being hover and the other having a rotatable turret.

[CutterJohn]

Originally Posted by Klockan

Having a fixed cannon means that you can't keep your armor forward while aiming backwards etc, it is much easier to keep your front armor where you want it to be if you have a turret.

This is a tradeoff, not an advantage. The mag will be more maneuverable, and will be able to back up nicely.

Tanks have vulnerable rear armor, so a prowler or vanny running and shooting will expose that. A mag will not.

[Bruttal]

Originally Posted by CutterJohn

This is a tradeoff, not an advantage. The mag will be more maneuverable, and will be able to back up nicely.

Tanks have vulnerable rear armor, so a prowler or vanny running and shooting will expose that. A mag will not.

We better be able to drive in reverse as good as we can drive forward then just sayin

[TAA]

Originally Posted by Klockan

The hover tanks in BF2142 weren't at all weaker than the tracked tanks, they had exactly the same stats except for one being hover and the other having a rotatable turret.

You know I think you are right. It has been quite a few years now. The Nekomata certainly was a better tank in the hands of skilled players.

[Kran De Loy]

Originally Posted by CutterJohn

The one major weakness of the mag is NOT the locked forward gun. They can compensate for that with additional maneuverability.

The Magriders weakness will be its inability to fire from behind any cover at all, due to the low position of its barrel. Normal tanks have the turret up top for a reason.

Really good point, I honestly forgot about that since hte last time I remember you mentioning it months ago.

Originally Posted by Klockan

Having a fixed cannon means that you can't keep your armor forward while aiming backwards etc, it is much easier to keep your front armor where you want it to be if you have a turret. The positive is that you can strafe, the negative is that your cannon is less maneuverable so it is harder to look around. Those two are roughly equal and thus the magrider doesn't have to be any weaker than the other tanks in PS2. In PS1 the magrider could both strafe and it had a movable turret so then it had to be weaker, but in PS2 there is no need to keep it weaker than the other tanks.

Just because my mag just got hit the arse does not make it impossible to about-face and throw the mag into reverse. All the while keeping the forward (now backward) momentum from a few seconds ago.

I doubt they'd allow for reverse and strafe moments on the mag to reach top speed but I would be surprised if they refused to let it go any higher than 75%. (I would prefer 100, but would settle for 90%).

I guess the part about not being able to look around would be valid, but I think it's gonna be one of those wait and see things. I mean if they have a fixed canon on the thing they sure as hell better not have made it so that I can't turn around with it as quick or quicker than the turret on either of the other MBT's.

Also a guess at another reason why they changed the Laser cannon into a Plasma Ball is the lowered TTK.

[TerminatorUK]

Originally Posted by Razicator

There's a reason why in PS1 magriders were the best tanks in the hands of higher skilled people. The nonexistent arc on the shots, coupled with strafing and a higher elevation, meant that magriders are the snipers of tanks, except with high damaging high explosive shells. Magriders camping vehicle exits from hills meant no ground or air vehicles.

Just don't go 1v1 a vanguard at 10 meters, and you should do fine.

This isn't true is PS2 though - the Magrider also has arcing projectiles so it won't have a snipibg advantage in this version.

However, I think tanks will be fairly well balanced against each other.

We really need to see 10-15 tanks with an infantry mix up to see how well they might be balanced

[MrKWalmsley]

Let's look at the Mag from a tactical standpoint regarding it's strafing ability. Here is a situation:
A tank is behind a building, and it knows an enemy tank is advancing towards them just around the corner.
The NC and TR tanks in that position would have to expose their weak flanks in order to quickly pop out of cover to destroy them.

The magrider could strafe out from cover, with it's frontal armour facing the oncoming tank, thereby making the action far safer, and with their good speed far quicker. Also the tank around the corner would see the tank in question a lot sooner, as a lot of the tank would need to be exposed before the turret itself gets in view, all people who play WoT knows what I mean. Whereas the mag using its strafe only has to expose it's width, rather than its length, making it a smaller target and meaning the other tank has less time to react.

Now, out on the field being on your toes is one of the keys to tank survival, so lets say you and an enemy are circling, as often happens, as you try to get behind the enemy. In this instance, the mag could just strafe around, only exposing it's frontal armour to the target, once again. Whereas the other tanks would require the exposition of their sides to do so.

This is why I utterly oppose Mags getting turrets, they are powerful enough. IMO they should stay as they are unless required through beta balancing issues.

[SgtExo]

Edit: ^^ said it better than me.

Anyone who has played BF 2142 will know that the hover tank with the fixed canon is as good as the tracked one with the turret (and I found that it was better). With the mag you can easily go into and out of cover to shoot at the enemy without exposing your side like in a normal tank.

[ParisTeta]

Everything (except taking hits) the Scyth can do better then a Magrider. Scythe is highly mobile, and when looking some video, faster TTK vs tanks then tanks themself. Versatile, can get in many advantage positions, high escape chance. Everytime to you spawn a mag, you better spawned a Scythe. Protecting Infantry while advancing forward? TR and NC has turrets to protect flanks, Mags, only can drive forward.

Scythe is the new Magrider, we don`t need no Tanks.

[MrKWalmsley]

Originally Posted by ParisTeta

Mags, only can drive forward.

Are you joking? Mags can drive side to side, which makes them more versatile in combat than the other tanks, plus the turn speed ect makes it turn even quicker than a turret! Its exactly the same as a regular tank, just performed in a different way.

[noxious]

Originally Posted by ParisTeta

Everything (except taking hits) the Scyth can do better then a Magrider. Scythe is highly mobile, and when looking some video, faster TTK vs tanks then tanks themself. Versatile, can get in many advantage positions, high escape chance. Everytime to you spawn a mag, you better spawned a Scythe. Protecting Infantry while advancing forward? TR and NC has turrets to protect flanks, Mags, only can drive forward.

Scythe is the new Magrider, we don`t need no Tanks.

Do you not understand that the Magrider can move in a straight line while simultaneously rotating its turret a full 360 degrees? The only difference between a Magrider and the other tanks is that the Magrider will also rotate its entire chassis 360 degrees at the same time. While doing this, it can still maintain a constant velocity (ie, it does not change direction).