Battle Rifle for Heavy Assault

[Sharkdog]

Wholeheartedly disagree.
As it stands now assault rifles as clearly visible in footage suffer from far less recoil then most shooter games and this is with mostly NC footage having the most recoil.
So with that in mind doing the 3 shot bursts routine for head shots looks highly effective already and I see no problems with LA vs LA battles.

So then what if they get a battle rifle? Mid range single shot battles they now have an advantage why? because they can reposition easier you say?

They are still wearing hospital gowns for armor, and that is the trade off for their mobility.
Yes they will be able to find high points etc. and such, so what.
In a map that LONG range is preferable you already admit you should be using an infiltrator.
In a long range map you have little obstacles by default or it would not be a long range map and you would be better of with an assault rifle, to top that off you will more then likely be dealing with vehicular combat on long stretches.

So what is the real scenario?? Having a battle-rifle will keep LA competitive in spaced out maps.
They wont have anti vehicle weapons, closest thing will be charges for ground vehicles.
What do you end up with is a more well rounded LA with a higher skill trade off with the only real advantage being more accuracy at the higher end of medium ranges and a definite trade off at close quarters.
Also note that battle-rifles will have no synergy with shooting mid air, that said the repositioning thing is being blown way out of proportion.
Jump jets are slow as molasses in winter, it has nothing to do with the speed of it JUST where they can be and as mentioned before assault rifles are quite snipey already at mid ranges.
Is having someone sneaking around on a rooftop intimidating to me? Hell no, not when I have a damage absorption shield, much more health in general, higher caliber weapons at my disposal and hey back up from my medic and my engineer.

Getting on a rooftop might be OMGZZ to some but it also excludes people from all the support mechanisms the game has to offer and being there alone is already a high risk vs reward decision.
And with so many roles in the game all made to adapt to the battlefield, anyone really have to think about a bunch of LA being annoying with mid range weapons on some peak no one can reach??
There really isn't enough versatility to deal with that especially since they are one of the classes that can be one shotted by an infiltrator?
No, if anything giving LA battle-rifles it will be more motivation to play infiltrators or hey even a HA with some cover and a battle-rifle as well.


What I do believe to be misbalanced is the HA not having a resupply case I find LA (only) an odd choice over the pillars of squad battles
Their high mobility and constant movement make them less then ideal to be the steady resupply point, it sounds like hell for the slower classes to have to run after the hyperactive child for ammo not because they cant but because their role is to be on the move forward.
That said the forward assault will benefit from them.
Maybe a topic for a thread somewhere..

[Klockan]

Originally Posted by Sharkdog

Getting on a rooftop might be OMGZZ to some but it also excludes people from all the support mechanisms the game has to offer and being there alone is already a high risk vs reward decision.

Look at this guy:
He does it right, doesn't fly higher than necessary (makes you a target), doesn't fly to try to avoid bullets, doesn't camp on the roof etc. Instead he utilizes the jetpack to get behind people, since lethality is high catching people form behind is really powerful, even if they are stronger than you if you fight on an open field if he shot you a few times in the back you still die. He flies against the first guy he encounters, yes, but then he had already thrown a grenade so the flight was cowered by the smoke making the opponent unable to track him. Other than that he just moved around shooting people in the back while avoiding direct confrontations.

[Sledgecrushr]

Originally Posted by Accuser

The class was clearly constructed for this purpose. LA is not designed to be the ultimate camping class and I know that our PS2 devs aren't dumb enough to make such an unbalanced mistake such as that. Even if they were, the ludicrous power that vertical mobility and long range weapon would grant would be quickly extinguished during Beta.

I dont know if a semi auto rifle with a x4 scope would turn the LA into a uberclass. Though I imagine through customisation the LA will have something very similar if you want it.

[Erendil]

Originally Posted by NoDachi

It's not just his opinion though.

It's how the game is devised with it's class roles. Light assault is for hitting fast using mobility. It has the jumpjet to close the distance. They're the close ranged / grenadier class, according to the class description.

Just because you have a fantasy about being a LA designated marksmen, doesn't mean the Devs or the players have any intention of including your fantasy.

From Planetside2.com:

"Agile and deadly, they serve their empire as an excellent flanker and skirmisher. While other classes find themselves confined by walls, buildings, and sniper alleys, the Light Assault makes shortcuts and controls the flow of combat from on high...Each one of the Light Assault’s various Jumpjet configurations grants them the ability to take on different obstacles, shifting their role in combat...They can also equip more specialized configurations, such as the high boost Icarus Jumpjets, to reach walled objectives and perched Infiltrators.."

Sounds to me like they're designed to attack from above, too. They may be good and getting up close, hitting fast, and the jetting away, but they are certainly not limited to it. Nothing in the class description says they are limited to close range. And trying to belittle me or my statements by calling them "fantasies" doesn't change that.

Originally Posted by Klockan

Those roofs are there to allow the light assault to utilize his 3d mobility, not for him to camp on. Light assault is not a camper, he should constantly be repositioning. And then the light assault still got mid range weaponry which is enough to shoot down from any roof, I don't really see why you would need a sniper to be able to utilize roofs.

The jetpack mobility is not about flying around to avoid getting shot, it is about flying around to attack from unexpected angles. If an enemy hides behind a wall then flying on top of the wall to shoot him from above is utilizing his mobility. But as soon as the enemy knows you are there the positions value dwindles so you move on to new positions. Constantly changing positions is mobility and not positioning.

I never said anything about camping in one spot, but you're seriously delusional if you think that LA troops won't camp on those rooftops and other perches, battle rifle or no. And many LA troops will continue to stay in the same spot long after they're discovered so long as they're relatively safe and have a number of targets to shoot.

And pure mobility would be given by something like surge, where you can't get to more places than regular troops, but you can get to where you want faster. The fact that jumpjets let you attack from directions and locations not otherwise possible (like on top of the wall you mentioned) is "positioning" by its very definition. There is no time element involved. Hence my stress on mobility and positioning being LA strengths.

You do have a good point tho about what kind of accuracy is required to shoot from various rooftops. For example, here's a clip from the E3 footage showing an Engineer firing at troops below with a scoped carbine (which are traditionally less accurate than even assault rifles much less battle rifles): http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...gelJGY#t=1656s

Here's another one with a Medic holding an AR (I Think) looking to do the same thing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...gelJGY#t=3318s

Both troops seem like they'd be capable of hitting targets within most of the ground area they can view. If they had battle rifles instead I'm not sure how much more effective they'd be in those spots.

Originally Posted by Accuser

The class was clearly constructed for this purpose. LA is not designed to be the ultimate camping class and I know that our PS2 devs aren't dumb enough to make such an unbalanced mistake such as that. Even if they were, the ludicrous power that vertical mobility and long range weapon would grant would be quickly extinguished during Beta.

Again, I never said anything about camping. And yes, quickly moving from point A to point B is clearly what LA is designed to do. But there's NO reason why he has to quickly move on once he reaches his initial destination so long as he is relatively safe. LA troops are not required to constantly be on the move.

And I think you're blowing the power that a LA troop with a battle rifle would have WAY out of proportion. They will not be invincible, not by a long shot. HA troops could still return fire with battle rifles of their own. Infils could still out-snipe them. Commanders could OS them if need be. Tanks could still shell them from 500m away with impunity. And aircraft can still pound the shit out of their perches without any fear of retaliation since the LA guy has no AV weapons.

I think part of the problem we have here is that we're debating the capabilities of a weapon system (battle rifles) that may not even be in the game and that we have no stats on at all other than presuming its accuracy and damage are somewhere between an AR and a sniper rifle. I suspect some of us have very different ideas about how close to a sniper rifle they actually would be in-game.

[Sharkdog]

Originally Posted by Klockan

Look at this guy:
He does it right, doesn't fly higher than necessary (makes you a target), doesn't fly to try to avoid bullets, doesn't camp on the roof etc. Instead he utilizes the jetpack to get behind people, since lethality is high catching people form behind is really powerful, even if they are stronger than you if you fight on an open field if he shot you a few times in the back you still die. He flies against the first guy he encounters, yes, but then he had already thrown a grenade so the flight was cowered by the smoke making the opponent unable to track him. Other than that he just moved around shooting people in the back while avoiding direct confrontations.

I totally hear you I've seen this footage too.
Sadly this is the only footage because this is just anybody at a booth at E3 and as you see most of the people he shoots are clueless and one is even seen just standing there unresponsive.
Now I think dude definitely knows how to use the jet pack in (close quarters) but then when we establish that.

How often does he go for a headshot or aims down his sight?
In his situation an assault rifle is the clear better choice, a shotgun in that situation would be even better.
Single shot weapons always are more penalized for unsighted firing and even if they were not, if you miss a shot in close combat since you stayed unsighted to stay mobile its effective suicide, a miss means something when you don't have a constant stream of fire.
Even if you get a couple clean hits in someone with full automatic can just run circles around you all day unsighted.
A constant stream of fire can help you guide your aim a single shot means you succeed or fail.
It is only preferable in less mobile fights with a low to medium mobility foe AND you having cover to aim down sight and retreat, or a camp spot where you are not "seen".
That said a battle-rifle has a COMPLETELY different dynamic in PS2 opposed to most shooters since even a infiltrator is unlikely to kill a MAX unit with a headshot for example.

At a longer range using the jet pack is yelling "shoot me first"!!!
In fact if someone spots you jetting up a building you are as good as dead cause your path is predictable.
Somewhere in the E3 footage you see someone catch someone jetting like twice.

IN any case I think certain things are obviously not done.
But something like a single shot rifle type weapon should be tested not excluded.
we aren't talking grenade launchers
Hope it was a decent read.

[OutlawDr]

Originally Posted by Erendil

I never said anything about camping in one spot, but you're seriously delusional if you think that LA troops won't camp on those rooftops and other perches, battle rifle or no.

Exactly, so lets not give them the tools to camp even further. This is at the core of issue. With mobility and range, they are the ultimate lone wolf camper.

You forgot to quote other parts of the LA section

The Light Assault’s extreme mobility is their defining trait and allows them to move faster than most other soldiers. Each one of the Light Assault’s various Jumpjet configurations grants them the ability to take on different obstacles, shifting their role in combat. The Standard Jumpjets allow them to make their way over barriers and enemy’s heads alike. They can also equip more specialized configurations, such as the high boost Icarus Jumpjets, to reach walled objectives and perched Infiltrators, or the hovering Glider Jets, to descend on vulnerable ground targets safely.

The Light Assault also excels at supporting their empire through their unique class grenades. The blinding Flash grenades can render entire squads helpless and allow for a momentary break in defenses. They also have access to Smoke grenades, which can be used to block sniper alleys and direct the flow of combat. Both of the Light Assault’s class explosives are important in allowing their empire to make the final push in capturing difficult objectives.

In addition to their utility on the field, they also excel at short to medium range combat. The Light Assault is able to choose from a diverse arsenal of various weapon types, including rifles, shotguns, and SMGs. These options allow them to adapt to whatever their environment demands. The best Light Assault soldiers make sure to use their powerful weapons with the element of surprise, disabling enemies before they know what hit them.

Though not as sturdy as other soldiers, the agile Light Assault can do serious damage when flanking enemy squads, taking advantage of both their vast weapon and support options. Whether acting alone to disrupt enemy forces or in a group to finish capturing a facility, the Light Assault is a fearsome presence on the battlefields of Auraxis.

Do a recap: Mobility, flanking, utility grenade support, and short to medium range.

[Erendil]

Originally Posted by OutlawDr

Exactly, so lets not give them the tools to camp even further. This is at the core of issue. With mobility and range, they are the ultimate lone wolf camper.

You forgot to quote other parts of the LA section



Do a recap: Mobility, flanking, utility grenade support, and short to medium range.

Actually infils are still the ultimate lone wolf camper, not that "camping" is a bad thing in PS1/2 to begin with. This isn't some 32v32 CoD minimap that resets every 30mins, where somebody sitting in one spot the the duration of a match isn't really helping out their team but just farming kills. This is a large-scale, 24/7 persistent, combined arms wargame.

Staying in one place for an extended period of time, or "camping" as you put it, is a normal, everyday, expected and accepted occurrence in PS1 where battles over a single base can last for days at a time. What is called "camping" in other FPSes is called "defending your position" in PS1. The tactic has completely different connotations in the context of a long-term, persistent battle. And I'm 100% positive the same will be said of PS2.

And whether or not LA troops get a battle rifle, their capacity for "camping" will not change for good or ill. Stop acting like a battle rifle will somehow transform LA troops into these uber-powerful, invincible snipe-whores. It's just not going to happen since all other classes will be able to return fire against said LA just fine and infantry are at the bottom of the food chain underneath vehicles when it comes to outdoor combat.

Giving LA troops battle rifles would instead be a small change in their method of attack, much like weapon customization. IT IS A SIDEGRADE, NOT A POWER INCREASE. A battle rifle by itself would not significantly extend the range at which they could engage targets since that is more dependent on what optics are available. It would, however, increase the accuracy of their shots within their already-established range. And for that increased accuracy they would lose some up-close ability. I see nothing wrong with this.

As for the LA description on SOE's site, I didn't forget to quote anything. We had already all agreed that mobility was a key component of LA tactics, so quoting it would be pointless and redundant. However, I DID quote the passages that point to positioning as being an important component as well, a fact which you apparently don't seem to accept despite what SOE's description, centuries of military history and tactics, and common sense would otherwise dictate. THE TWO ASPECTS ARE NOT MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE. It is not one or the other. They are BOTH important aspects of LA tactics.

[OutlawDr]

Actually the part I quoted that was most important was the "short to medium range combat", which you neglected to acknowledge again. It doesn't say long range. So again paint this picture: fast flanker that engages in short to medium range.

Also battle rifles do extend the range one can engage at. A more powerful rifle will have its damage degrade less over distance. We already know thats the advantage assault rifles have over carbines in PS2. Im sure something similar will be for this weapon, since its based off the LMG model which is a larger rifle. The descriptions says "pick off long-range targets", which by SOE own description would exclude LA usage. Yea, a scope lets you get more accurate shots at range. But a scope on a carbine, is going to be a lot different than that same scope on a BR. A carbine is going to do less damage over the same distance. Unless they are in close range, where LA is suppose to excel at.

[Accuser]

I'm 90% sure the Devs are smart enough not to overpower the LA by giving it a long-range weapon. If they do, I'll happily demonstrate how overpowered the tactic is in Beta.

[Antivide]

I can't understand how people can't see the massive unbalancing if the HA had a long ranged weapon.

You take the class with the most hit points with anti-vehicle weapons... and you WANT TO GIVE HIM A SNIPER RIFLE?

Battle rifle is like a DMR. It's a long range rifle that out ranges assault rifles. Hence it works with the Infiltrator.

Case in point: Recon in BF3.

[Marinealver]

LMG actuallly have a longer effective range than assault (aka battle) rifles. Those low accuracy short range LMGs are tweaked for gameplay ballances. Sure if you hold down the trigger you wont get any accuracy. That is why militaries train them in short controlled bursts.

At first I thought it is better to have Heavy Assault as the sniper class instead of infiltraitors because most planestide snipers had rexo armor, but after I saw that the infiltraitors cloak isn't like the planetside 1 cloak, I now agree with the sniper infiltraitors.

[Accuser]

Originally Posted by Antivide

I can't understand how people can't see the massive unbalancing if the HA had a long ranged weapon.

It's nice to get back on topic here.
HA have the least utility compared to the other classes. Really, they're basically under-armored MAXes... until you give them the battle rifle.
Medics get to heal and shield, engis can drop turrets and ammo, MAXes are beasts, and snipers have OSK capability with cloaking. HA could use the per-spawn versatility.

[Erendil]

Originally Posted by OutlawDr

Actually the part I quoted that was most important was the "short to medium range combat", which you neglected to acknowledge again. It doesn't say long range. So again paint this picture: fast flanker that engages in short to medium range.

Okay, then let me address the full quote directly then, not just your bolded phrase:

In addition to their utility on the field, they also excel at short to medium range combat. The Light Assault is able to choose from a diverse arsenal of various weapon types, including rifles, shotguns, and SMGs. These options allow them to adapt to whatever their environment demands.

That first sentence has a whole new meaning when you read the whole thing instead of just the latter phrase you highlighted. So they excel and short and medium ranges in addition to "out in the field," which presumably means "long" range since that's the only range that's left (though I hesitate to say purely "long range" since I like to reserve that designation for sniper rifles). In addition, they are being given rifles, which I assume already means assault rifles but could easily also include battle rifles.

Originally Posted by OutlawDr

Also battle rifles do extend the range one can engage at. A more powerful rifle will have its damage degrade less over distance. We already know thats the advantage assault rifles have over carbines in PS2. Im sure something similar will be for this weapon, since its based off the LMG model which is a larger rifle. The descriptions says "pick off long-range targets", which by SOE own description would exclude LA usage. Yea, a scope lets you get more accurate shots at range. But a scope on a carbine, is going to be a lot different than that same scope on a BR. A carbine is going to do less damage over the same distance. Unless they are in close range, where LA is suppose to excel at.

Very good point about a scopes effectiveness on different weaopns. I'll also concede your assertion that battle rifles logically could inherently giving you a longer range then say, an assault rifle due to the increased damage. However, my understanding is that LMG's in PS2 are (for balance reasons) actually less accurate than assault rifles, so obviously the Devs are willing to go against logic for the sake of gameplay balance. Thus it would be quite easy for them to do the same for battle rifles, to let them for example be more accurate and higher damage per shot, but giving them higher damage degradation, lower headshot multipliers, short max range, or something like that to keep the weapon in check at the far end of its effective range.

In addition, I still contend that there is nothing that I've read that says LA troops can't/won't also be effective at medium-long ranges. Quite the contrary.

Originally Posted by Accuser

It's nice to get back on topic here.
HA have the least utility compared to the other classes. Really, they're basically under-armored MAXes... until you give them the battle rifle.
Medics get to heal and shield, engis can drop turrets and ammo, MAXes are beasts, and snipers have OSK capability with cloaking. HA could use the per-spawn versatility.

This is very true. HA troops are basically the all-around fighter class of PS2, so it certainly makes sense that their specialty would be to have the greatest variety and versatility in weapon systems.

[Sharkdog]

Outlawdr you keep emphasizing on how great a point your making but its not a point at all its quite rhetorical.
It reads LA excel at short to medium range NOT can only fight at short to medium range.
That my friend is selective reading at its best and quoting your own personally preferred interpretation as holy gospel.

That said opponents of the concept of LA having BR have become very rhetorical in general.
If you are going to post in a thread dismissing/ignoring others posts, stating meaningless one lined political statements like "if the devs aren't smart enough to do as I say I will show people in Beta how OP it is".
Then don't post.
In short try to actually reply to others not inner monologue.

As it stands no one is really refuting any points Erendil or I have made.
Try to keep it a discussion not a political campaign.

As it stands LA will still have their mobility with or without BR and will still have to be looked for in the EXACT same spots.
As much arguments for a BR being OP for other classes can be made just as easily.
Like Antivide and I have also said HR have much more hit-points would probably be far stronger BR platforms with higher hp.
Whoever picks up a BR will be competing with infiltrators, this should not be a HA, LA however will be squashed by infiltrators one-shotting them.
Lets not compare to other shooters too much this game does have different hitpoint pools and some classes wont even die from a shot to the face from sniper rifles.
Lets not act like BR are somehow omglolz sniper rifles with a higher rate of fire.
I have no clue where this presumption of OP lolz comes from there is not one single game in the FPS universe where single shot rifles are the ultimate choice over using burst on assault rifles.
And that is what this is everyone afraid of battle rifles seems to not be able to use them well in CoD or Battlefield, even while those games don't deal with different hit-point scenarios.

Having played a lot of battlefield the battle rifle was not the most overpowered rifle at all and competing with dedicated snipers was quite less effective while that game doesn't have even half the haze effects PS2 has.
Overlighting from the sun, faded sight from darkness to the point you need night goggles or heat vision etc. etc.

All that I am hearing is unfounded presumptions over what a battle rifle will be able to do and its clearly made out to be a sniper rifle which is redundant.
Because sniper rifles are not battle rifles with 8x or whatever scopes.

P.S. should infiltrators still be able to one shot HA I see no problem with them using BR.

[Karrade]

Originally Posted by Kalbuth

The entire point of a more mobile unit is to attack an ennemy from unexpected angles. Not to provide cover.
Jetpack is for getting out of a pinned down position and get an angle (ie : flank) the ones pinning your troops down.

LA are backrape-ers, a very important tool in FPS

Excluding fun, which i'll have playing all classes, and again I am not suggesting a BR for LA, just range for LA.
I'm not sold on LA at all after hearing range is unlikely, not when you can just pilot something in to that unexpected angle, and get out in heavier armor.

Without any range, for me, it depends on respawn time, if respawn is fast I can't see them being very useful, if its slow yes I can see it being useful.

Of course its situational, might be the odd time it'll be preferable as a distraction etc or to get somewhere the enemy are not defending, but most of the time with no range to them I can't see it being preferable.

But you can get up high!! Yes but that is of no use to you, or the team. (no range)
But you can go in fast!! With lesser weapons and armor, so that is a trade off not an advantage of the class.
But you can get out of range!! Useful in a slow respawn time game to heal, otherwise I'll be sticking with a more heavily armed rusher for the times a rusher is needed. PS1 was a game of respawning when a push was needed, if we assaulted bases enough we learned this quite early.

Originally Posted by Accuser

Obviously they aren't designed to provide cover. That's what snipers do. LA get in close, jump behind the enemy, and take out a few enemies with short-range weapons in a blaze of glory, since their armor wont sustain them for long. The jetpack is for surprise and speed. They are PS2's CoD players, compared to the slower movement and heavier weapons of HA and MAXes that are slightly more of PS2's PS1 players.

Giving LA sniper range would make them entirely too dodgey and difficult to kill. Whereas in Alpha, almost any class could kite a MAX, LA-snipers could kite any class. It would make them better snipers than Infiltrators are, and that's just stupid.

Better snipers? Not at all, just give them worse weapons, simple, nothing has to be a certain way at all. I seemed to have the idea of the class backwards, I thought they -were meant to be hard to hit because of their armor trade off, moving the fight forward , now from what I am reading they are meant to be fodder? - Ah reminds me of flash gorden and hawkmen.


I look forward to meeting any LA, once I am used to the packs they'll be good kill food .

At present here is my current opinion of the most useful to least useful class for teamplay, from what i've seen in the videos, and from the discussions here, from the developers etc:

Engineer - So much utility! Ammo, Revive, Max Repair, Vehicle Repair - Uber Teamwork Class!
Max - The customisation had my eyes popping , 1/2 AV, 1/2 AI! Or double flamers! Yum, Yum.
Medic (Always great, AOE heals for the team, very nice, but if engineers do have revive you can drop this below a cloaker)
Cloaker - Always useful in its uniqe role
---
HA - Jack of all trades, good solo class, outdone in nearly all other ways. BR has given me hope , might launch it above the useful line for teamplay.
LA - Rusher with less armor, less range, less versatility (than the class above), more mobility. - Many negatives, one fun positive.