Vehicles(artillery) and economy - Page 4

sylphaen · 2012-03-22, 10:08 AM

Originally Posted by Stardouser

Well, respawns should never be instant. But I don't agree with limiting squad spawn to outdoor only(or making respawns, including squad spawns, more than 20 seconds), either; and to the extent that capturing a spawn room makes any difference, I really don't see why defenders should ever spawn right inside a room that has to be captured in order to capture a base, anyway.

But now, as far as the artillery goes, I thought you meant that it was annoying for the people getting hit by it, not by the people using it...which did you mean?

Sorry for not being clear.

It was annoying for the people getting hit by it... Except they were not really being hit. Flail targets were exits, courtyard areas and vehicle/repair terminals located outside.

Yes, it was tactical, it required a cert and a cave lock. But it was simply not a fun mechanic for most. I would compared it to long range tower camping. Pulling and deploying a flail also required too little effort compared to how much effort it took to go destroy them miles away.

I would much rather be shelled by a tank on a hill near the base than by a vehicle you can't even see. At least, it takes time for the tank to reach the vicinity of a base. It's also a lot more risky.

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The spawns example might have been a wrong one. I just wanted to show how something can go from good to awful depending on an arbitrary value.

FYI, PS1 spawn time was adjusted based on how fast you died. Respawn could range from 5 seconds to 30 seconds (if you died a lot due to intense base defense or assault for example). During an intense battle, most had a long spawn time and even then, it could be hard to take a base. Imagine how frustrating it could have been if respawn always stayed low !

That's just an idea I wanted to describe through an example. Fortunately, PS1 spawn mechanic was adjusted to fit the game. It would also be possible to discuss base designs with claustrophobic corridos, tight doors, limited numbers of possible paths towards objectives... etc...

In the end, you have to play it to get a feel of the game and that's when some values can be adjusted to improve the game. I think artillery is one of those aspects. It can be done but it has to improve the game for most and that is hard to know without playtesting.

Stardouser · 2012-03-22, 10:18 AM

Originally Posted by sylphaen

I would much rather be shelled by a tank on a hill near the base than by a vehicle you can't even see. At least, it takes time for the tank to reach the vicinity of a base. It's also a lot more risky.

__________________

The spawns example might have been a wrong one. I just wanted to show how something can go from good to awful depending on an arbitrary value.

FYI, PS1 spawn time was adjusted based on how fast you died. Respawn could range from 5 seconds to 30 seconds (if you died a lot due to intense base defense or assault for example). During an intense battle, most had a long spawn time and even then, it could be hard to take a base. Imagine how frustrating it could have been if respawn always stayed low !

That's just an idea I wanted to describe through an example. Fortunately, PS1 spawn mechanic was adjusted to fit the game. It would also be possible to discuss base designs with claustrophobic corridos, tight doors, limited numbers of possible paths towards objectives... etc...

In the end, you have to play it to get a feel of the game and that's when some values can be adjusted to improve the game. I think artillery is one of those aspects. It can be done but it has to improve the game for most and that is hard to know without playtesting.

Well, I do think the range should be short enough that you must get close to the base. Not so close that you have to sight right out in sight of the target base where you can be sniped out of the driver seat by someone inside the base(curious - CAN you snipe people out of vehicles?), but short enough that the people in the base know they can find it not more than 1 km away if they can get out to look for him, ie you might not be sitting on the hill right next to the base, but you might be sitting on the hill right behind that hill.

As for spawn time, I've played with spawns ranging from instant, to 15 seconds to 45 seconds and even greater too if you died a lot it could be 1:15, frankly I can't imagine how actually experiencing the game would convince me that any respawn time greater than 25 seconds is not going to be an extreme annoyance.

sylphaen · 2012-03-22, 10:34 AM

Originally Posted by Stardouser

Well, I do think the range should be short enough that you must get close to the base. Not so close that you have to sight right out in sight of the target base where you can be sniped out of the driver seat by someone inside the base(curious - CAN you snipe people out of vehicles?), but short enough that the people in the base know they can find it not more than 1 km away if they can get out to look for him, ie you might not be sitting on the hill right next to the base, but you might be sitting on the hill right behind that hill.

As for spawn time, I've played with spawns ranging from instant, to 15 seconds to 45 seconds and even greater too if you died a lot it could be 1:15, frankly I can't imagine how actually experiencing the game would convince me that any respawn time greater than 25 seconds is not going to be an extreme annoyance.

In PS1, you could not snipe someone in/on his vehicle.

It was quite easy to locate flails, their shots were slow and left a large blue trail of light in the skies.

Slow respawns were annoying indeed. It did promote staying alive as long as you could but I found them boring, yes. FYI, there was also a hierarchy in spawn times based on which facility you were spawning in. Spawning in a base was fast, then the fastest was a tower and I think the slowest was spawning at an AMS.

Fortunately, since the gameplay speed is being for the fastest in PS2, it should be quite interesting to see the result.

Remember that there is also a balance to strike between spawning at a spawn point and waiting for a medic. If respawning is too fast and trivial, medics lose some of their appeal.

Fenrys · 2012-03-22, 06:59 PM

Originally Posted by Stardouser

Does that mean that the masses actually listen and go where they are told? I've always had this notion that at least 15% of players would be going behind lines sabotaging or raping the enemy as they came out of their bases(if that's even possible) rather than throwing themselves at defended objectives.

They go where they are told to indirectly. The zerg reliably charge the nearest enemy in the biggest battle. Zergherding means planning your ops so those conditions will be met at the base you wish for the zerg to attack.

Aircav would sometimes go after vehicles as they came out of rear bases. For example, if you are on defense, you might pull a Reaver from a base that isn't currently being attacked, and patrol the route that's between your base that is being attacked and the nearest enemy base. Ideally you would find and destroy their AMS's (mobile spawn points) before they reached the fight.

If you were on offense and trying to take a well defended base, you might patrol around the nearest warpgate looking for Ants (which are used to fill bases' energy silos) Spawning and pulling vehicles consumes energy and the silo needs to be resupplied every once in a while, especially during heavy fighting at that base. If you can deny them the opportunity to get an Ant into the base, it will eventually go neutral and lose it's spawn point (it's assumed that since you're attacking, your team already has mobile spawn points in place nearby).

Stardouser · 2012-03-22, 07:20 PM

Just out of curiosity, and on the subject of vehicles, would PS vets consider it blasphemy if there were some air vehicles that were purchased/requested at a runway and needed it to take off, instead of all VTOL? I might already be incorrect in assuming they are all VTOL....

sylphaen · 2012-03-22, 07:35 PM

Originally Posted by Stardouser

Just out of curiosity, and on the subject of vehicles, would PS vets consider it blasphemy if there were some air vehicles that were purchased/requested at a runway and needed it to take off, instead of all VTOL? I might already be incorrect in assuming they are all VTOL....

What extra purpose would it serve ?

Concerning VTOL, pretty much all PS1 air vehicles were VTOL so it's a safe assumption.

Stardouser · 2012-03-22, 07:41 PM

Originally Posted by sylphaen

What extra purpose would it serve ?

Concerning VTOL, pretty much all PS1 air vehicles were VTOL so it's a safe assumption.

Eh, nothing. I was just dreaming about my old MMO vision for a modern themed MMOFPS where you have things like fuel that are a concern, and you have to land to refuel, and also land at the completion of a mission otherwise it counts as a loss of the aircraft if you don't return it to base. But that's a completely different idea from PS2.

I will ask, though, out of further curiosity...how many bases per continent are expected to exist that can spawn heavy attack aircraft; and also, is there any limit to how many of a certain vehicle, in this case aircraft, can spawn? I mean, if every player in your Empire was certified for them could they ALL spawn a bomber or whatever constitutes the closest thing to one? Or a tank, for that matter?

sylphaen · 2012-03-22, 07:59 PM

Originally Posted by Stardouser

But that's a completely different idea from PS2.

Originally Posted by Stardouser

How many bases per continent are expected to exist that can spawn heavy attack aircraft; and also, is there any limit to how many of a certain vehicle, in this case aircraft, can spawn? I mean, if every player in your Empire was certified for them could they ALL spawn a bomber or whatever constitutes the closest thing to one? Or a tank, for that matter?

I only know about PS1. There were 7-11 bases per continent which offered different benefits. One of them was the Technology Plant. It allowed to spawn "tech" vehicles such has empire specific tanks (ES MBTs), skyguards (AA buggy) and reavers (heavy attack aircraft).

Unless you had one of those bases under your control on the continent and linked to your current base, you could not spawn those vehicles at your current base. Tech plants were critical. Some continents had 3 and others only 2 (so one empire was stuck without tech vehicles).

Another type of base, the dropship center, allowed to spawn Galaxies (air troop transport) and Galaxy Gunship (air fortress) but only at that base.

The only limit was how many people had the cert and how many people you had to man their guns. So for 2-man vehicles, the theoretical limit would be 165 or so per empire per continent

EDIT: PS1 is a free download and only 15$ a month. Maybe you should give it a try since it's hard to explain all the aspects comprehensively. The whole game is integrated and knowing one part may not be helpful to understand the whole dynamic.

If you ever decide to give it a try, choose the VS and get in touch with GOTR. I cannot speak for them but I think they will gladly accompany you through the game until PS2. I'm not currently active in-game but they are the group of guys who changed the whole game for me.

kadrin · 2012-03-23, 05:44 AM

I would love to see arty in PS2. Though it would need some balance because the Flail could get pretty stupid with the whole "park on hill outside of base and direct fire into doors".

I used to play spotter for a couple of friends, the satisfaction of watching the rounds come in where you directed them... those were great moments.

I always wished they'd add some sort of feedback for the Flail person for adjustments, something on the HUD to tell them how many meters away they were aiming from the point that was lazed, that way I could just say something like "25 meters left/right/up/down". It was pretty hard to direct fire onto something other than by lazing it constantly, I'd have to tell them things like "a little more to the left" or "bring it down a bit.