Is Lasher A Spam Weapon?

[Dharkbayne]

It's not the actual lasher that's the problem, it's the fact that 9/10 vanu have one. The 10th one was killed while trying to reload his lasher.

[noxious]

Originally Posted by BadAsh

I have to disagree with the argument that in other FPS games people live longer. In Battlefield 1942 you can drop anyone in the game with 2 �head shots� with any weapon including a pistol and with 1 single shot from a sniper rifle. One player can kill 5-7 with 1 clip of ammo. Grenades in BF 1942 KILL everyone in the blast radius. So it�s not splash damage radius it�s a killing radius those weapons have. In RTCW there are �head shots�, insta-gib grenades, one shot sniper rifles, and critical knife stabbing from behind (instant kill).

Also in BF1942 many of the lighter vehicles and even tanks tend to be killed with single bomb hits, mines, or tank rounds. With mines and critical panzerfaust shots an infantry soldier can instagib a Tiger or M-10 (heaviest tanks in the game).

PS has no head shots and no critical hits on personnel or vehicles. In PS you live longer and have more time to react.

PS is a one of a kind game that loosely fits into the FPS mold. Players of PS tend to be more of the thinking type as opposed to the twitch style players and are quite proud of this fact. I�ve even seen the term �death matcher� used in a derogatory manner to describe that different style of play. It�s seen as �lone wolf� mentality and is frowned upon. Cries of �get some support certs� can be heard here in the PSU forums as well.

The reality of this situation is that most PS players don�t spend all their time mastering weapons. They spend time flying, driving, cloaking, scouting, hacking, etc. So logically the guy who ONLY kills will eventually get better at it. And here is where I see a chunk of the �problem� with HA.

HA is slightly more powerful than MA. So a very skilled �death matcher� armed with HA will kill a highly skilled �death matcher� armed with MA. After the fight the MA will be dead and the HA will walk away with 20-30% of his health/armor intact. This is hardly domination, this is more like �squeaked by� with a win. The above example considers optimum range for the HA weapon. Stretch the fight out over medium or long range and MA actually has the faster TTK. So again this is hardly HA domination.

The real problem is that most PS players invest their time building other skills rather than pure death match type skills. Some few players do develop these death match skills to high levels. So what I think you guys are bitching about are these players that are actually better as something than you are.

The notion that any unskilled player can grab HA and dominate and thus �ruin PS� is pure BS concocted to soothe the egos of players who got owned in a fight. It also soothes the frustration players who just are not good with tactics.

The other day I was guarding the back entrance to a base with about 7 other guys. We all had lashers. Some NC goober opens the door, surges in, and promptly gets melted. I managed to land the �killing shot/lash� so he sends me a hate tell about how I need the lasher to kill and have no skill. Um, NO, you rushed 8 guys with weapons drawn� he would have died using that tactic against 8 guys with beamers.

Later on during that same siege I find a NC player crouching on top of a box in one of the rooms under our base. He has a punisher and only reacted to me when I started hitting him with lasher orbs. I strafed to one side while keeping my aim on him. He died quickly. Then I get the hate tell. �I wish we had an uber-weapon too�. Um, moron, you sat still, did not move, did not shoot until you started getting shot, managed to miss with every single shot with your punisher and then blame the lasher on your getting owned? BTW, the Punisher using the plasma nade then full auto mode still can consistently beat down a Lasher in a 1v1 duel.

The other day some moron whined to me about the Lasher claiming it could allow anyone to kill 3 players in a 1v3 situation. So my buddy and I challenged him to some 2v1 dueling. He accepted and we loaded him down with all the lashers he could stash in his locker. My buddy and I equipped ourselves in agile armor with sweepers. We did not use medic kits or implants, but allowed him to use whatever he wanted. He went with Lasher, Rexo, Surge, medic kits. Anyway, after spanking him 8 times in a row he left. I was getting tired of waiting for his surge to reactivate anyway. Oh, and neither of us died. Not once.

Um, n00bs, it�s not the lasher. It�s not HA. It�s you not being as elite as you think you are. Spend less time flying in your reaver, driving your AMS, and snooping around in your MAX or infiltration suit and learn to AIM and STRAFE as Infantry. Otherwise quit whining about getting owned as infantry. I know this is common sense, but someone had to freaking say it.

Even though my primaries are both VS I do think the Lasher was overbuffed a little too far. That fact aside, very good post.

[LimpBIT]

Originally Posted by Dharkbayne

It's not the actual lasher that's the problem, it's the fact that 9/10 vanu have one. The 10th one was killed while trying to reload his lasher.

I couldnt have put it better. Great thing about TR and NC is we dont all use the same weapons. You will hardly ever see a MA VS.

[noxious]

Originally Posted by LimpBIT

I couldnt have put it better. Great thing about TR and NC is we dont all use the same weapons. You will hardly ever see a MA VS.

We have such a great MA...

Before the rexo buff I would at least use the Sweeper. But now it seems to take too many hits to kill a rexo and in 2 on 1 situations I'm at quite a disadvantage.

[Firefly]

It's not only that 9/10ths of the Vanu have a Lasher, it's that quite frequently they have over TWICE the population of the NC and TR combined.

[Happy lil Elf]

Got it, Bad. The lasher is fine. There's no issue with it. It's all because everyone else sucks.

Wrong, but interesting take on it I guess. The real problem with it as it stands you unwittingly pointed out in your pwn post. Here, lemme quote it for you.

The other day I was guarding the back entrance to a base with about 7 other guys. We all had lashers.

This is why there is so much disgust over the lasher. It's also the reason there was so much hate for the Jackhammer and, back in the days of Beta, so much hate for the TR MAXs/MCG. It's not so much the weapon that kills you instantly that raises hackles, it's the proliferation of said weapon.

Anyways, you're using more than a couple bad comparisons and some flawed arguemtns in that post, but I need to get to bed so if I'm bored tomorrow at work I'll dissect it for you. As far as the "You just suck, that's why you don't like HA." I don't think I'll get into that with you because quite frankly, it's a childish argument.

I just personally prefer games that focus on mobility over twitch skills. I enjoy PS because it offers that mobility, you just have to cert a vehicle. However it's rather annoying to turn a corner in your base on the way to the V-pad and get killed by a Lasher/MCG/Jackhammer user before you even have a chance to fully face them.

My issue is that in, say, Tribes for instance, the weapons were deadly, but you had much better ability to dodge them. In PS/UT/[WW2_FPS_game_127] the weapons are just as deadly, but your mobility is greatly reduced. I can hold my own in twitch games, they're just not as much fun for me as games where a fight between two very skilled people might take 10-20 seconds as opposed to 1-2 second "bouts" you see in most twitch style games.

[BadAsh]

Originally Posted by Firefly

It's not only that 9/10ths of the Vanu have a Lasher, it's that quite frequently they have over TWICE the population of the NC and TR combined.

Vanu use the lasher because what else are they supposed to use? The Pulsar? The Beamer? Now I know there are some diehard Pulsar fans out there, but the Cycler and Gauss Rifle are both superior IMHO and apparently that opinion is shared by many other Vanu. Either you pilot a vehicle or MAX or use a Lasher. Those are your viable options. The TR and NC have a MA option so many choose that.

The population swing is another matter entirely. Not much can be done about that. The pop shift went from NC-TR-VS to VS-NC-TR with the former "low team on the totem pole" switching positions with the old top dog. Interesting.

This is gettin a little too far off topic so check out my new thread if you wanna hear more of my ramblings... lol I can almost feel the anticipation... hehe.

Hasta.

[KIAsan]

I like this quote: "The notion that any unskilled player can grab HA and dominate and thus �ruin PS� is pure BS concocted to soothe the egos of players who got owned in a fight. It also soothes the frustration players who just are not good with tactics."

I decided to test the theory, my being a support player type, with limited HA skills. Created my lasher character. I didn't squad with anyone, just went solo to every hotspot I could find. I went from BR0 to BR6, over 70 kills and only 24 deaths to infantry within 3 hours (about 4 base caps total). Now, I'm a fair shot, however being a support type, I'm willing to admit that I'm not the worlds best grunt, for me, 30 kills in an evening is a great run (and I do cert MCG). There is no way I could have done this with a BR0 TR and MCG. ANd before you say it, yes I did VR to get enough certs for MA/HA. BTW, this was with no implants.

So, either I became very skilled suddenly or for that 3 hour period in prime time, every TR and NC I ran into sucked. Hmm, maybe it was because of my overbuffed lasher. Heck, I ran into a tower, BY MYSELF, and proceded to own 5 poor TR on a stairwell. The poor dudes didn't have a chance. I have never done that well before.

[BadAsh]

Originally Posted by KIAsan

I like this quote: "The notion that any unskilled player can grab HA and dominate and thus �ruin PS� is pure BS concocted to soothe the egos of players who got owned in a fight. It also soothes the frustration players who just are not good with tactics."

I decided to test the theory, my being a support player type, with limited HA skills. Created my lasher character. I didn't squad with anyone, just went solo to every hotspot I could find. I went from BR0 to BR6, over 70 kills and only 24 deaths to infantry within 3 hours (about 4 base caps total). Now, I'm a fair shot, however being a support type, I'm willing to admit that I'm not the worlds best grunt, for me, 30 kills in an evening is a great run (and I do cert MCG). There is no way I could have done this with a BR0 TR and MCG. ANd before you say it, yes I did VR to get enough certs for MA/HA. BTW, this was with no implants.

So, either I became very skilled suddenly or for that 3 hour period in prime time, every TR and NC I ran into sucked. Hmm, maybe it was because of my overbuffed lasher. Heck, I ran into a tower, BY MYSELF, and proceded to own 5 poor TR on a stairwell. The poor dudes didn't have a chance. I have never done that well before.

Not to dis you, but I've had similar killing sprees with MA. Anyway, the point of my argument that seems to have gotten lost here is:

Someone who practices/playes as infantry vs infanry more is going to be better than someone with less practice (not always of course but usually). So the guy who spent hours every day honing reaver skills will be at a disadvantage fighting someone who spent their time honing infantry vs infantry skills... and then there are the implants you use vs infantry and the ones you use as a pilot... that can be a huge factor once you land and dismount...

The guy with more practice, the right implants, the right equipment (weapons, medic kits, medic/eng self repair certs, etc) and better armor (rexo) has a significant advantage. To ignore than and blame HA for all your woes is... wrong.

It's been my experience in the game that the people who whine the most about the Jack or lasher or HA in general were amungst my easiest kills. They run straight at you and thus avoid none of my shots while I strafe, they are not accurate with their aiming, they rush into a hopless situation (like the NC rushing 8 men example I used earlier).

HA gives you a slight advantage 1v1, but it's not enough advantage to ensure victory over more than one opponent.

As far as the Lasher goes, I bet once the minor bug with it is corrected the whining will continue. It's inevitable.

Yesterday I took down a Lasher user with my jackhammer. He bitched to me about the tripple shot being cheap... um, I did not use tripple shot and dispite the fact that he emptied half a clip at me I was only mising about 50 armor on my Rexo. So much for the "lash of doom".

Another amusing thing... in dueling 1v1 the lasher is still the dead mans weapon of choice. Punishers (with 1 plasma nade), Cyclers, Gauss Rifles, Jackhammers, and MCG's still consistantly win... again, so much for the lash of doom...

[GreyFox]

Originally Posted by BadAsh

Another amusing thing... in dueling 1v1 the lasher is still the dead mans weapon of choice. Punishers (with 1 plasma nade), Cyclers, Gauss Rifles, Jackhammers, and MCG's still consistantly win... again, so much for the lash of doom...

Agreed. But indoors in tight situations it becomes better. Especially in numbers, which affects the Lasher more then the other HA.

And btw about the MA discussion above, yeah I like the Pulsar. Before I started using HA, I had a Pulsar/Sweeper fav, and an Agile Pulsar fav, aswell as a Pulsar/Sniper fav.

But I rather use any of the other empire specific MA. Especially when it comes to medium range. The pulsar is quite good at Close range, but now I got the Lasher, so... And the Sweeper is better at close range I think (then the pulsar, atleast before the Rexo buff, havn't used Sweeper since it).

The thing is, I'd rather use the Boltdriver at the little longer medium ranges, where I would be better of with a Gauss or Cycler, but the Pulsar hardly scratch the armor...

Anyways the biggest reason the vanu has been successful lately has been the combination of Highest population, and a lot of Lasher users (because everyone wants to try it out. Even former TR and NC players).

And why even when a continent is poplocked on both sides and the Vanu still win, is, I think, a combination of the Vanu being so many they fill the continent so fast they got an initial advantage and the amount of lasher users are sometimes overwhelming, especially in defense. And because of population we usually got poplock on several continents. While the others might not.

And about the lasher being a spam weapon; It can be, especially in hallways. But it requires skill in 1on1 weapons, and even as a spam weapon to be succesful. It's not as much a spam weapon as the thumper. You will never be able to be as safe as you can as a thumper user.

[BadAsh]

Originally Posted by Happy lil' Elf

Anyways, you're using more than a couple bad comparisons and some flawed arguemtns in that post, but I need to get to bed so if I'm bored tomorrow at work I'll dissect it for you. As far as the "You just suck, that's why you don't like HA." I don't think I'll get into that with you because quite frankly, it's a childish argument.

I apologize for the lack of clarity with my initial ramblings. Let me explain my point more clearly here before you dissect me for a point I was not trying to make.

My point is simply that:

Someone who practices as something gets better at it. HA is not that much more powerful than MA in a stand up 1v1 fight. Skill is a factor in determining a win or loss.

In my examples I was intending to show that much of the whining about the Lasher (and HA in general) is not warranted. I was not trying to suggest that the Lasher is currently a balanced weapon. In my examples that recently actually happened to me in game the �victims� the my Lasher died because of their crappy tactics and lack of skill more so than any over powered characteristic of the Lasher itself. If you can�t aim, don�t bother dodging/strafing, don�t have anti-infantry implants, don�t have an anti-infantry inventory load-out, mindlessly rush masses of enemy troops that are braced for an attack from your direction, or otherwise make poor battlefield decisions it just might not be the Lasher that�s the problem here. In each of my examples the Lasher was blamed and in each it was more about player stupidity than any real or imagined weapon balance issue.

So I don�t believe HA is a problem in PS. The �problem� (more a characteristic than a problem) is that PS attracts a wider variety of players rather than the �pure death matcher�. These other players will inevitably almost always get spanked by the �pure death matcher� in infantry confrontations. It�s got to do more with practice time invested, tactics utilized, and overall character build strategy. Also, players with the natural talent for infantry vs. infantry play are more likely to be drawn to the �pure death matcher� style of play. Someone who just sucks at it is more likely to give up and excel in other areas (Piloting, MAX, Support, etc.). It�s this practiced talent and certification/equipment/implant configuration that creates much of the gap in infantry vs. infantry confrontations. Hence, I don�t think removing HA from the game will change anything. It would simply shift the whining to other weapons.

[noxious]

Originally Posted by BadAsh

Hence, I don�t think removing HA from the game will change anything. It would simply shift the whining to other weapons.

Exactly what I say whenever the "remove the HA" debate comes up.

[KIAsan]

Originally Posted by BadAsh

Not to dis you, but I've had similar killing sprees with MA. Anyway, the point of my argument that seems to have gotten lost here is:

Your not dising me, I suck with HA, period (Thats why I'm a support weeinee). However, that makes my example more valid. I can get 70 plus kills as a lasher noob. I can't do that as a MCG or JH noob. I haven't practiced with the lasher. I'm not that skilled in HA. So, either I became instantly skilled when I picked up the laser, or everyone around me was brand new or really sucked, OR the lasher bug is overpowered.

The most likely of the arguments, the lasher is overpowered. And yes, I didn't have anywhere near the same luck when I tried this with TR and NC toons (told you my HA skills suck).

The point I am making, is you can't say this is all due to skill. People start whining when there is either a Perceived unfair advantage or and actual unfair advantage. In this case, there is an actual advantage.

Now, is this due to everyone toting a lasher? Or is it a case of lack of skill on all the TR and NC. I for one think it's a combination of Lasher bug and overpopulation. I'm sure many of those 70 kills were assists, since I know many of my kills were stolen by other lashers. And those 24 times I died to infantry, most were in 1 on 1 matchups.

Anyway, lasher is getting fixed, now folks will be whining about the surge nerf.

[FatSlice]

Krinsath, that's the best explaination I've heard. You must have purple blood running through those veins.

[Veteran]

Sorry, but if you need to use fanfic to explain game balance, something is wrong.

Lasher should have been replaced with a viable Heavy Assault weapon, barring the removal of Heavy Assault, which is now passe considering how many HA grunts are bitching their Depends off over the Surge changes.