Squad Leader mechanics - Major Concern! - Page 4 - PlanetSide Universe
PSU Social Facebook Twitter Twitter YouTube Steam TwitchTV
PlanetSide Universe
PSU: 99 billion served, or is that McDonalds?
Home Forum Chat Wiki Social AGN PS2 Stats
Notices
Go Back   PlanetSide Universe > PlanetSide Discussions > PlanetSide 2 Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 2012-07-05, 12:21 AM   [Ignore Me] #46
cHaM
Private
 
Re: Squad Leader mechanics - Major Concern!


The system as a whole is a poorly designed idea that will be poorly implemented. It's overcomplicating a simple matter. A more elegant solution would be to eliminate it entirly and let the system work itself out organically similar to PlanetSide 1.

There are two types of players in these types of video games. Those that want to play strategically and help their team / empire. And those that are casual and just want to login and kill stuff.

The first type will gravitate towards other like-minded players and form an outfit that is controlled, not by some CR 5 outside the outfit, but rather internally. I fit into this niche, as well as other players in my outfit. We are not going to give 2 shits about what some UI element tells us we should do. One of us is going to make a decision on our direction and that is the way we are going to roll.

The 2nd type isn't going to be herded no matter what system you put into place. They're going from point A to point B as mindlessly as possible. Afterall, there's a reason it's called "The Zerg".
__________________
-Cham
Nova

Last edited by cHaM; 2012-07-05 at 12:23 AM.
cHaM is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 2012-07-05, 12:24 AM   [Ignore Me] #47
Ukrai
Private
 
Re: Squad Leader mechanics - Major Concern!


Originally Posted by Soothsayer View Post
So it's also been said that 10 minutes of normal xp gain will be one cert point.

So there ya go!
Based on that, it will take someone 16 hours to get to Squad Leader level 5, add a paid xp boost to that and you could do it easily in a day.
Ukrai is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 2012-07-05, 12:25 AM   [Ignore Me] #48
PhoenixDog
First Sergeant
 
Re: Squad Leader mechanics - Major Concern!


Originally Posted by cHaM View Post
The 2nd type isn't going to be herded no matter what system you put into place. They're going from point A to point B as mindlessly as possible. Afterall, there's a reason it's called "The Zerg".
Wrong. While correct with the first type...The people who just want to log on and kill stuff....They still want to be where the fights are. They will still follow "CR5's" mindlessly and go where they tell them. After all, the "CR5's" know what they're talking about. So then the zerg gets herded by these dumbass commanders from point A to point B to point F. When the strategic commanders need some man-power from the zerg...They can't get them to follow because the zerg is too busy listening to the dumbass.

Originally Posted by Ukrai View Post
Based on that, it will take someone 16 hours to get to Squad Leader level 5, add a paid xp boost to that and you could do it easily in a day.
No way! So I can be a completely skilled and confident squad leader in less than a day! Pfft...Who needs any certs beyond that! And I mean...We must be going by the 1-2-3-4-5 points we've seen in the early alpha builds where even the devs have said "All these are placeholders and will change". But who listens to them...

For all we know...The first point into SL could be 100 points...Your 16 hour estimate would only net you 96...
__________________

~Xen of Onslaught Member Since: September 2003
~XoO Planetside 2 Air Division Commander
~Recruiting Now! Check our our PSU Recruitment Thread Here

Last edited by PhoenixDog; 2012-07-05 at 12:29 AM.
PhoenixDog is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 2012-07-05, 12:33 AM   [Ignore Me] #49
cHaM
Private
 
Re: Squad Leader mechanics - Major Concern!


Originally Posted by PhoenixDog View Post
Wrong. While correct with the first type...The people who just want to log on and kill stuff....They still want to be where the fights are. They will still follow "CR5's" mindlessly and go where they tell them. After all, the "CR5's" know what they're talking about. So then the zerg gets herded by these dumbass commanders from point A to point B to point F. When the strategic commanders need some man-power from the zerg...They can't get them to follow because the zerg is too busy listening to the dumbass.
The casual player that is logging in just to kill stuff doesn't give a damn about the overarching goal of the empire, it's leaders or the fresh "Squad Leader" who just put a mission into the system.

He's logging in because he wants to drive a tank and shoot stuff. Everything else be damned.

The 1st type of player (players like me), is who the system is geared for, and it will totally be ignored by them because they're going to come to the conclusions organically with the people they're playing with the most.

It *might* capture some of these types of players during the first 3 - 6 months of the game, before they coalesce into their chosen groups. But longterm, it will not be a system that is widely used.
__________________
-Cham
Nova

Last edited by cHaM; 2012-07-05 at 12:35 AM.
cHaM is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 2012-07-05, 12:38 AM   [Ignore Me] #50
Ratstomper
Major
 
Ratstomper's Avatar
 
Re: Squad Leader mechanics - Major Concern!


Originally Posted by cHaM View Post
The casual player that is logging in just to kill stuff doesn't give a damn about the overarching goal of the empire, it's leaders or the fresh "Squad Leader" who just put a mission into the system.

He's logging in because he wants to drive a tank and shoot stuff. Everything else be damned.

The 1st type of player (players like me), is who the system is geared for, and it will totally be ignored by them because they're going to come to the conclusions organically with the people they're playing with the most.
I feel like you need to get off your high horse and realize not everyone fits neatly in your categories. I don't consider myself a competitive player. I consider myself more of a casual player. I also consider myself tactically minded and find myself having better sense than some of the CR5s I see in PS1.

This idea of competitive vs casual is effing ridiculous. If you think players aren't going to run the gamut of that spectrum, you're fooling yourself.
Ratstomper is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 2012-07-05, 12:39 AM   [Ignore Me] #51
PhoenixDog
First Sergeant
 
Re: Squad Leader mechanics - Major Concern!


Originally Posted by cHaM View Post
The casual player that is logging in just to kill stuff doesn't give a damn about the overarching goal of the empire, it's leaders or the fresh "Squad Leader" who just put a mission into the system.

He's logging in because he wants to drive a tank and shoot stuff. Everything else be damned.

The 1st type of player (players like me), is who the system is geared for, and it will totally be ignored by them because they're going to come to the conclusions organically with the people they're playing with the most.

It *might* capture some of these types of players during the first 3 - 6 months of the game, before they coalesce into their chosen groups. But longterm, it will not be a system that is widely used.
I agree to an extent...You need to recategorize your 2nd type then into two...One who just logs on and wants to kill stuff, and the other who wants to kill stuff and help. Both in essence are the same person...But one will mindless follow a down-syndrome CR5 to the ends of the Earth because he's "popular". This is why I don't want a voting system in the game...The first of the 2nd type I don't need to worry about...They won't listen to you, me, or anyone. But the other one I fear. He is influenced by the idiots and will hinder the progress of people like you and me because we may need to rely on him and people like him as man-power. But while we continue to fight the good fight...The dumbass CR5's control the "strategic masses" elsewhere and thus everyone fails.

Originally Posted by Ratstomper View Post
I feel like you need to get off your high horse and realize not everyone fits neatly in your categories. I don't consider myself a competitive player. I consider myself more of a casual player. I also consider myself tactically minded and find myself having better sense than some of the CR5s I see in PS1.
I don't believe he was trying to categorize everyone. There is no "competitive vs. casual" in this game because it doesn't matter either way. He's categorizing the mindset of most people between "Strategic vs Durr Kill Stuff". You are obviously in the former.
__________________

~Xen of Onslaught Member Since: September 2003
~XoO Planetside 2 Air Division Commander
~Recruiting Now! Check our our PSU Recruitment Thread Here
PhoenixDog is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 2012-07-05, 12:46 AM   [Ignore Me] #52
Ratstomper
Major
 
Ratstomper's Avatar
 
Re: Squad Leader mechanics - Major Concern!


Originally Posted by PhoenixDog View Post
I don't believe he was trying to categorize everyone. There is no "competitive vs. casual" in this game because it doesn't matter either way. He's categorizing the mindset of most people between "Strategic vs Durr Kill Stuff". You are obviously in the former.

Originally Posted by cHaM View Post
There are two types of players in these types of video games. Those that want to play strategically and help their team / empire. And those that are casual and just want to login and kill stuff.
Maybe I misunderstood, but it sounds like he's lumping, not only the entirety of PS2 playerbase, but the entire collective playerbases of "these types of video games" into either super serious xbox commandos or blundering mouth-breathers. Both of those are disingenuous and there will be people in between the extremes.
Ratstomper is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 2012-07-05, 12:48 AM   [Ignore Me] #53
cHaM
Private
 
Re: Squad Leader mechanics - Major Concern!


Originally Posted by Ratstomper View Post
I feel like you need to get off your high horse and realize not everyone fits neatly in your categories. I don't consider myself a competitive player. I consider myself more of a casual player. I also consider myself tactically minded and find myself having better sense than some of the CR5s I see in PS1.

This idea of competitive vs casual is effing ridiculous. If you think players aren't going to run the gamut of that spectrum, you're fooling yourself.
At no where did I mention competitive vs casual. You can have both.

I'm talking about a mindset.

I'll make a prediction: You'll be in an outfit / clan that has a similar mindset as you if you're not in one already, ignoring the objectives from the mission system. This is only natural and has a lot to do with human psychology and the tribal mindset. A lot of top-tier game developers have figured this out already.
__________________
-Cham
Nova

Last edited by cHaM; 2012-07-05 at 12:49 AM.
cHaM is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 2012-07-05, 12:54 AM   [Ignore Me] #54
Ratstomper
Major
 
Ratstomper's Avatar
 
Re: Squad Leader mechanics - Major Concern!


Originally Posted by cHaM View Post
At no where did I mention competitive vs casual. You can have both.

I'm talking about a mindset.

I'll make a prediction: You'll be in an outfit / clan that has a similar mindset as you if you're not in one already, ignoring the objectives from the mission system.
Ok, maybe I jumped the gun. I apologize if I misunderstood.

However, I would still submit that a game like PS2 (and PS1) requires some amount of empire commitment to fights. People who choose to act independently are the exception, not the rule and an outfit cannot take on a whole empire. The faction needs numbers to be effective, not just strategy.

We see this all the time in PS1; a fight that may be more advantageous or important falls by the wayside because someone pops in global chat and says "everyone go here", even though "here" is a thoroughly moronic place to go. The people who realize a fight is worthwhile are left to lose because they don't have the manpower to fight a whole empire themselves. Or even worse, you have multiple commanders telling people to go to different places.

That's why, for the faction as a whole, command is a massively important tool. To say "It won't matter" is just a falsehood.
Ratstomper is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 2012-07-05, 01:00 AM   [Ignore Me] #55
PhoenixDog
First Sergeant
 
Re: Squad Leader mechanics - Major Concern!


Originally Posted by Ratstomper View Post
Ok, maybe I jumped the gun. I apologize if I misunderstood.

However, I would still submit that a game like PS2 (and PS1) requires some amount of empire commitment to fights. People who choose to act independently are the exception, not the rule and an outfit cannot take on a whole empire. The faction needs numbers to be effective, not just strategy.

We see this all the time in PS1; a fight that may be more advantageous or important falls by the wayside because someone pops in global chat and says "everyone go here", even though "here" is a thoroughly moronic place to go. The people who realize a fight is worthwhile are left to lose because they don't have the manpower to fight a whole empire themselves. Or even worse, you have multiple commanders telling people to go to different places.

That's why, for the faction as a whole, command is a massively important tool. To say "It won't matter" is just a falsehood.
Which all comes back to me saying again why I don't want a voting system in PS2. You can read my rand at the bottom of the last page. All you need is some goof which lots of votes from other retarded people (including his outfit) to say "Hey look everyone...SHINY!!" and away goes the zerg chasing that beautiful piece of tinfoil. Then people like us are left picking up our asses from the battlefield because Hee-Haw decided to run the zerg elsewhere.
__________________

~Xen of Onslaught Member Since: September 2003
~XoO Planetside 2 Air Division Commander
~Recruiting Now! Check our our PSU Recruitment Thread Here
PhoenixDog is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 2012-07-05, 01:03 AM   [Ignore Me] #56
SKYeXile
Major General
 
SKYeXile's Avatar
 
Re: Squad Leader mechanics - Major Concern!


Originally Posted by PhoenixDog View Post
Wrong. While correct with the first type...The people who just want to log on and kill stuff....They still want to be where the fights are. They will still follow "CR5's" mindlessly and go where they tell them. After all, the "CR5's" know what they're talking about. So then the zerg gets herded by these dumbass commanders from point A to point B to point F. When the strategic commanders need some man-power from the zerg...They can't get them to follow because the zerg is too busy listening to the dumbass.
The zerg cant be relied upon for tactics, they will take the path of least resistance from the last place there were at, a commanders best chance at success is to support the zerg by providing vehicle repairs like lodestars and getting amses, obviously when in a fork situation a target needs to be called, this generally needs to be done by a CR5 flood broadcasted by muliple commanders or by just having one broadcasting things.
__________________

SKYeXile TRF - GM
FUTURE CREW - HIGH COUNCIL
SKYeXile is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 2012-07-05, 01:23 AM   [Ignore Me] #57
SnipeGrzywa
Corporal
 
SnipeGrzywa's Avatar
 
Misc Info
Re: Squad Leader mechanics - Major Concern!


Originally Posted by Rivenshield View Post
There are no orbital strikes in PS2. Any and all of the worries expressed in this thread can be dealt with via one simple command:

/ignore
Wow, are you miss informed. There ARE OS in PS2. Higby stated they will be empire specific (VS will be similar to original, TR similar to an artillery strike, didn't mention NC) with certs to change size/power and pattern (IE: point,line,X,etc).


And for those breaking down time per xp per cert crap .... Any time they release info one of the first things they state is all values are just numbers at this point. During beta the "costs" will be established, so no point in crunching numbers yet.

Last edited by SnipeGrzywa; 2012-07-05 at 01:25 AM.
SnipeGrzywa is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 2012-07-05, 01:24 AM   [Ignore Me] #58
Ratstomper
Major
 
Ratstomper's Avatar
 
Re: Squad Leader mechanics - Major Concern!


Originally Posted by PhoenixDog View Post
Which all comes back to me saying again why I don't want a voting system in PS2. You can read my rand at the bottom of the last page. All you need is some goof which lots of votes from other retarded people (including his outfit) to say "Hey look everyone...SHINY!!" and away goes the zerg chasing that beautiful piece of tinfoil. Then people like us are left picking up our asses from the battlefield because Hee-Haw decided to run the zerg elsewhere.
I agree. I don't want a voting system either. I'm saying the system HAS to have a safe guard that encourages good leadership, tactics and logistic management and requires that those things be up-kept. That way people who are not good leaders or have no desire to lead will, at best, only have command benefits for a short time, if ever.
Ratstomper is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 2012-07-05, 02:48 AM   [Ignore Me] #59
Vydofnir
Private
 
Re: Squad Leader mechanics - Major Concern!


Originally Posted by cHaM View Post
There are two types of players in these types of video games. Those that want to play strategically and help their team / empire. And those that are casual and just want to login and kill stuff.

The first type will gravitate towards other like-minded players and form an outfit that is controlled, not by some CR 5 outside the outfit, but rather internally. I fit into this niche, as well as other players in my outfit. We are not going to give 2 shits about what some UI element tells us we should do. One of us is going to make a decision on our direction and that is the way we are going to roll.

The 2nd type isn't going to be herded no matter what system you put into place. They're going from point A to point B as mindlessly as possible. Afterall, there's a reason it's called "The Zerg".
I don't feel as though I fit into either of these categories. PS2 appeals to me largely because it has a strategic element, so I plan on putting a lot of consideration into what missions I choose to accept. However, I am not entirely sold on the idea of outfits and I won't be likely to join one right away.

I'm sure that there will be players who want to log in and kill without any thought to strategy, but it seems to me that if my only concern was running around killing things, I wouldn't bother playing PS2 when there are faster paced FPS games that can get me into the action much more quickly.

Outfits are necessary in PS2 in order to conduct well coordinated assaults that might not benefit directly from the mission system, e. g. assaulting a point behind enemy lines. However, there will be "casual" players who do not belong to outfits, but are still very much interested in playing strategically.

I don't necessarily want to follow the path of least resistance, I want to go where I feel my faction needs me. Having a system that rewards players for putting thought into their actions seems like a great mechanic for those of us who want to play strategically, but don't want to treat PS2 like a 2nd job.
Vydofnir is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 2012-07-05, 03:32 AM   [Ignore Me] #60
Kezz
Sergeant
 
Re: Squad Leader mechanics - Major Concern!


It doesn't matter what the points costs for Command Certs are, the fact that there is a limited number of certs that anyone will want, for practical purposes, and that you can get XP boosters will mean that high level command abilities are extremely widespread after a while. Unless the Certs in "tactical" things are particularly engaging, only the completists will "have to collect them all", and even then, the benefits of certing Command will at some point be worth more than the umpteenth different sniper scope, so they'll get certed before the more outre weapon/ability certs, even by the collectors.

Having any command abilities unlockable just by spending Cert points is a really bad idea. It's certainly worse than PS1's way, though that was, as has been pointed out, far from perfect.

If OS's are as was mentioned: Vanu get orbital lasers; TR get some kind of artillery stonk (both of which are very in-keeping, IMO), the Smurfs should get a THOR strike.

If Command abilities needed upkeep, and the way to keep them up was to get missions completed, it would provide a reason to keep using the mechanic. If the mission mechanic allowed you to examine the record of the commander issuing the order, it would soon winnow out the numpties.

Given that this is a FTP game, and it's entirely likely people will dip in and out of it, there needs to be some way for some sort of direction to be given to the curious visitor (who might get converted into an addict). I think the Mission system could, if well implemented, provide that guidance.

It occurs to me that Outift leaders could recruit the more conscious part of the zerg. If they put up open missions for subordinate objectives, and mention (hopefully there's some free text) that it's an outfit-sponsored operation, people like me (small outfit, often only one online) who want to help but aren't being directed currently, and don't know enough about the overall situation to make good decisions about where to go, could x up for something actually useful.
Kezz is offline  
Reply With Quote
Reply
  PlanetSide Universe > PlanetSide Discussions > PlanetSide 2 Discussion

Bookmarks

Discord


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:14 PM.

Content © 2002-2013, PlanetSide-Universe.com, All rights reserved.
PlanetSide and the SOE logo are registered trademarks of Sony Online Entertainment Inc. © 2004 Sony Online Entertainment Inc. All rights reserved.
All other trademarks or tradenames are properties of their respective owners.
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.