ESF pilots revolt!!!! - Page 4

Kail · 2013-08-03, 12:35 AM

All they did was reduce the magnitude provided to the vertical jets via afterburner, correct? So you should still be able to do the reverse maneuver to turn around. And probably still fly backwards - just at a little above normal vertical thrust rate instead of near forward velocity.

Regardless of all that, I personally don't mind the change. I'll have to hop on the PTS to see how it feels; perhaps reducing it to 4x multiplier instead of 2x feels better while still reducing the crutch of the learning the reverse maneuver.

Tatwi · 2013-08-03, 01:28 AM

Originally Posted by Canaris

more fly less hover can only be a good thing

Aye. This was something that I suggested in beta, because I felt it would be better for game in the long term. When an air vehicle can stop in the air and turn on the spot, there's no reason to ever do anything else in any fight. As a result, all of the terrain features and the concept of altitude become useless, which is a waste of game play depth. When you're forced to keep flying forward to stay in the air, your surroundings become more meaningful.

Good luck with the game. Hope it works out for you folks.

EVILoHOMER · 2013-08-03, 05:07 AM

Why are they messing around with something that isn't broken?

FIX THE DAMN BASES!

Rolfski · 2013-08-03, 05:21 AM

I'm opposing this "revolt". Flying an ESF is instant death = not fun for 80% of the players. You just stand no chance against all these BR 100 reverse thrusting ninja's. This has got to change.

Reaching the skill ceiling in an ESF should be an insanely long trajectory that will only reward you minor advantages over 80% of the players that are mediocre dog fighters but actually have fun flying an ESF because most people are on their same level.

And don't even think that reverse trusting is just a simple manoeuvre for most people that will make them a good dogfighter when they manage it. It's really not. It's completely unintuitive and strange physics that you specifically need to train on but even if you have managed it, will still loose you your dogfights most of the time.

Becoming a better pilot in this game is just not fun atm but the biggest problem with ESF's is at its core: Combining gunship helicopter with jet fighter mechanics is what causes most of the (balancing) issues with ESF's.

EVILoHOMER · 2013-08-03, 06:20 AM

I don't find aircraft fun anymore really, it's gone to what Planetside became where you cannot fly near a battle or your instantly get hit by AA. So you end up having to run away all the time...

It was fine how it used to be, it was the map design that was the problem cause bases give barely any cover.

Obstruction · 2013-08-03, 10:33 AM

When an air vehicle can stop in the air and turn on the spot, there's no reason to ever do anything else in any fight. As a result, all of the terrain features and the concept of altitude become useless, which is a waste of game play depth. When you're forced to keep flying forward to stay in the air, your surroundings become more meaningful.

this poster doesn't really know what they're talking about here. that's not an insult, but rather an observation. and i'm not picking on this poster exactly, but more picking on the sentiment repeated throughout the thread, which this seems to sum up. they seem to give some significance to hovering that really isn't there. anyone i see sitting still gets murdered fast. there are way too many options in this environment for killing a hovering target, and terrain features are always meaningful in any engagement below 300m, and meaningless above that.

so then, to educate the uninitiated: what is at issue here is not hovering per se, but the reverse maneuver, which takes advantage of flight inertia by using vertical afterburners as a sort of thrust vectoring device. that may be obvious to a lot of the pilots here but i think it bears explaining because the discussion is getting very broadly sidetracked as all the fixed wing idealists and terrible pilots come to chime in about this or that without really knowing what we're on about. it isn't hovering at all, it's flight, in a way that is specific to the design of the vehicle and the physics of the game environment.

that said, i don't think it will be a terrible nerf, but i also don't see why it needs to be changed. it really does enhance the game and make it a unique and exhilarating experience in gaming. bear in mind i'm not even that good at ESF, but i do dogfight them constantly as a Lib pilot. it's also not really an "unfair advantage" for anyone. all ESF can perform it equally. what it is, is a skill ceiling for a skill dominated field of play. and the complaints here are mostly coming from self professed "bad pilots."

it would be like me complaining about low TTK as infantry because i'm not that good at playing on the ground. i'll be the first to say it, i don't play on the ground, i don't enjoy it, my low playtime there means i'm not really that great at it. i can usually manage to stay over 1.0 k/d in a given session but i won't win any awards. on the ground i usually prefer medic and harasser or bangbus driver. it's a playstyle choice i have to make, given the skill ceiling for that environment. and it is much the same with being a pilot. you make your playstyle choice given the skill ceiling and the game environment there, as well. and that means VTOL physics, love them or hate them.

if they nerf the RM too hard it will REQUIRE 3 to 1 odds and lock on missles to take down my team regularly. and, if they were to change the flight model for the ESF to fixed wing and not the Liberator, then the Lib would dominate the skies. and i know what's coming next - complaints that the Lib is a VTOL bomber. well, if they changed the flight model on the Lib it would be worthless in the game environment with the stats it has (acceleration, speed, mass, yaw/pitch/roll response.) and lets face facts, the stock Lib is already the most useless vehicle in the game. it's nearly unplayable.

in other derailments:

i'm pretty sure they have said you will be able to turn off the flight assist in Star Citizen. so it should be a good space sim as long as the instanced battle system doesn't end up ruining gameplay. i am definitely already planning to run a Constellation crew, and then work our way up to a Corvette in-game. i can't wait.

i'm also pretty hyped for EQ3. i hope there's flight combat in that too. haha. but i'll settle for some type of glass cannon mage nuker.

also, did you guys see the ESO footage? WOOF! what a shabby looking game. 5 years in development for a beta that is supposed to be released in six months, and it looks like 3rd year students made the animations and textures. complain about SOE all you want, and the bugs in PS2, but Higby and the boys are WAY ahead of those clowns.

snafus · 2013-08-03, 02:57 PM

Here are some primary points that show up for me after really thinking these changes through.

1. Obviously dog fighting will take a large impact as anyone who get behind you will have a massive advantage now. Currently the ability to perform a reverse maneuver allows players to engage multiple opponents and if more skillful to actually defeat them. If these changes went through you would find your self solely relying on terrain or wing mates to ever shake someone on your six. Which may not be that bad except if we hit the deck the multitudes of AA in this game will perform insta poof on our squishy asses.

2. Engaging Liberators is already a very dangerous objective if the lib crew is of proper quality. Taking away the ability to stay mobile with vertical thrust will increase your losses against good Dalton gunners ten fold. I would love some of you guys to engage the recursion lib team with a reduction of 8 to 2 on vertical thrust. I'll put a spoiler in here for ya, you will die.

3. A2G ESF will now be forced to rely on hit and run attacks almost purely. As the ability to dodge ground based fire will be almost impossible with the reduction of vertical thrust speed that will hit us. I say this because our pods have been nerfed incredibly hard and take the majority of a magazine to usually kill one infantryman. The ability for a pilot to stay mobile but at the same time keep eyes on an objective is crucial for a proper A2G ESF to be effective. And not to mention I have to hover about 80% the time I engage ground forces simply due to crappy rendering problems. God help you if that fight reaches over a platoon of forces as I have to get about 100-200 meters from the target and wait a few seconds to even see them. To force A2G to rely on strafing runs will rape our ability to deliver accurate or any fire at all on an objective.

4. Almost all of the balancing that has taken place for Air and ground relations is based on current flight mechanics. To even slightly nudge this in either direction throws a very delicate situation out the door. Currently ESF are getting eaten alive by the multitudes of AA based weaponry in PS2. And that is Ok as we still have the ability to be extremely lethal ourselves. But once they reduce the speed we move while in hover you will see our effectiveness plummet. Weather they made the reverse maneuver on purpose or not it is an essential aspect of the game now, That many of us pilots love and cling to. It isn't easy to learn and require lots of practice to perfect. But once mastered it elevates your game and allows you to perform feats in the air other flight games can only dream of.

Sledgecrushr · 2013-08-03, 10:14 PM

Its probably a good change and something soe should have launched this game with.

snafus · 2013-08-03, 10:58 PM

Originally Posted by Sledgecrushr

Its probably a good change and something soe should have launched this game with.

Wouldn't have been an issue if they launched the game with it. I would not have preferred that mechanic being added but at least that would be the standard. But with them changing part of the flight mechanic in such a drastic way, one year into the games life, seems to be a bit much. Honestly I would really love to hear their motive for the proposed changes. I have a bad feeling this is an attempt at lowering skill ceiling but all they will do is make the game more bland and still difficult to grasp for new players.

OmegaPREDATOR · 2013-08-05, 10:52 AM

Originally Posted by snafus

3. A2G ESF will now be forced to rely on hit and run attacks almost purely. As the ability to dodge ground based fire will be almost impossible with the reduction of vertical thrust speed that will hit us. I say this because our pods have been nerfed incredibly hard and take the majority of a magazine to usually kill one infantryman. The ability for a pilot to stay mobile but at the same time keep eyes on an objective is crucial for a proper A2G ESF to be effective. And not to mention I have to hover about 80% the time I engage ground forces simply due to crappy rendering problems. God help you if that fight reaches over a platoon of forces as I have to get about 100-200 meters from the target and wait a few seconds to even see them. To force A2G to rely on strafing runs will rape our ability to deliver accurate or any fire at all on an objective.

That's the only good thing in this NERF. But as always SOE have strange idea (to be polite).

Liberators ARE the A2G force and ESD have to be A2A force (Liberator escort/hunter). But actually ESD are A2A + A2G force and it's not a good thing.

BUT nerfing V-thrust is the less intelligent to do. Because in A2A reverse maneuver is the only way to try to stay alive against other ESF (and Dalton Libs).

So the ESF who will behind will almost win all the time now. The only way to try to escape will to run faster to the warpgate or skygards/AA MAX allied force and in that game the powerfull ESF is the Mosquito (and don't say a Reaver with auxiliary tank + afterburner and Dpees 3 will escape easier, Mosquito don't care at all and stay on the tail).

If you want you could maneuvre to pass behind the attacking ESF (I will not say dogfight cause it will no more have after that NERF) and what ESD is the best in maneuvrability ? Scythe ...

Reaver have the best hover ability and nothing else (except bigger hit box) so NC will have a worse NERF than other pilots (here I just want to say balance is totally forget in this NERF).

Here the way SOE may have think the modification :

ESF are to good against ground forces with the lol-pod, we need to do something !
Nerfing ESF ?
Great ! We could now pass to the more intersting question of the day : our design are poor and players start to yell against that so we have to find something who cost near nothing (and memory consomption is not a problem as we don't care at all) ...

Yes that's ironic but I already say this NERF was a bad idea (for be polite).

The only problem is ESF have really poverfull lol-pod who is a better A2G than Liberator weapons.

Just make the nerf here, a lol-pod nerf ONLY not a ESF nerf.
The easy way to do that is to remove the munition of lol-pod -> just a rocket clip and that's it. You shoot all, you return at a airpad to re-arm (more reallistic game play). No more rocket farm/spam and 1 ESF will no more be allowed to be the PS2 BFR (yes it's an hyperbol).

Zadexin · 2013-08-05, 11:22 AM

Originally Posted by DarkBalths

To be honest, ESFs shouldn't be able to hover at all. They're jet fighters, not helicopters. One of the reasons so many people bitch about ESFs and people lolpodding is because they can just hover and farm. Nerfing the flat-out vertical thrust is a step in the right direction. ESFs really shouldn't be able to go under 100kph, unless they're landing.
That's my opinion.

I agree with this sentiment. ESF = Empire Specific FIGHTER. Not Helicopter, not gunship, not hoverer. I've seen 'clever' ESF pilots do the most asinine things like hover nose down right over the top of spawn zones and 'pod anyone that walks out the door.

I don't know about 100kph but they should have require horizontal movement to stay in flight. This whole, "everything is a helicopter" crap is really bad. OR, if ESFs can hover nose down, give me the ability on EVERY tank mounted weapon to aim 90 degrees straight up.

maradine · 2013-08-05, 11:39 AM

This thread is not about the general inclusion of hover capability on ESFs. No change currently proposed or under discussion is removing it. There are plenty of other threads on ESF AtG capabilities in general if that's your gripe.

OmegaPREDATOR · 2013-08-05, 12:48 PM

Originally Posted by Zadexin

I agree with this sentiment. ESF = Empire Specific FIGHTER. Not Helicopter, not gunship, not hoverer. I've seen 'clever' ESF pilots do the most asinine things like hover nose down right over the top of spawn zones and 'pod anyone that walks out the door.

You want realistic infiltrators ? Tanks ? Weapons ? With PS2 you doint it wrong. What don't you don't understand on "futuristic" game ? If you want realistic modern warfare there is enought game you can play.

As you say lol-pods are the problem not hover.

Calista · 2013-08-05, 12:58 PM

Flying in this game pretty much sucks unless you are dedicated to it. I applaud SOE for backing down the skill ceiling. It was way too damn high.

SolLeks · 2013-08-05, 01:58 PM

Originally Posted by Calista

Flying in this game pretty much sucks unless you are dedicated to it. I applaud SOE for backing down the skill ceiling. It was way too damn high.

I so wanted to make a troll statement for this comment, it is to easy, but I will not because the mods will get mad at me >.>