How Long Should MBTs take to be Destroyed?

[Landtank]

Originally Posted by Mechzz

I enjoyed the history bit, but note that I fixed your grammar concerning how many fecking magrider rounds it took to kill a Vanny in PS1 (and no, I don't mean the PPA!)

Hahahaha, oh the Vanu, hopefully the Magrider won't just be a glorified lawnmower this time around :P

[PoisonTaco]

Against infantry they should be hard to take down but not impossible. It depends on the weapons the tank has equipped. If the tank has AV/AA or AV/AV then infantry should stand some chance.

MBT's should be tough enough so that they can have interesting fights with each other, but they shouldn't be so strong that they dominate over infantry.

[Manco]

Originally Posted by Landtank

Well then allow me to bore you to death with the history of the Tiger I tank on the Eastern Front.

You see, over 1300 Tiger I's were deployed on the Eastern Front starting in December 1942. The most operational at one time was 400, with ~200 operational at any given time. They had a brinell hardness of 280, while the Russian AP rounds had a brinell hardness of 200-230. This means that the Tiger I's armor was actually harder than the Armor Piercing tip of the Russian ammunition, allowing it the shrug off 95% of all shots.

Tiger I Tank 121 took 250 shots, and still managed to limp back to base. It had taken shots from several different calibers ranging from 14.5mm to 100mm. It's own gun, a Flak 88mm, was the largest gun put on a main battle tank in WW2, and it could penetrate the armor of nearly any other tank out there. So the fact that it could survive shots from a 100mm anti-tank gun is something to behold.

Also, shooting a Tiger I tank head on is silly seeing as it's head on armor was 4 inches thick, you would want to shoot at its side or rear, where the armor was only 2.4 inches thick.

Now as I said, this is all extremely unrealistic for a game seeing as it wouldn't be any fun to shoot a Vanguard 250 times. But it would be cool to be in that tank har har.

/end history lesson

But then again it was hugely expensive, used shitloads of fuel, had awful tracks and was a bitch to actually get to a fight. It wasn't a tank built for a nation with dwindling resources, which Germany was by the time they actually were deployed in full.

That's why the best tanks were the T-34/85 and even the lowly Sherman who just literally zerged the opposition. Firepower and durability don't win wars when you can't back it up with numbers and logistics ( and a whole slew of other factors)

Anyway, considering in a game those other factors are of much less importance, even logistics only becomes an afterthought in most engagements, real-life comparisons are indeed a bit futile.

Which means the actual factors we need to account for are: resource cost, travel vs life time (fun factor basically), the fact that a 1- person tank is now viable, numbers and so on.

I'd say 5-7 frontal hits (depending on type) vs another tank, and maybe one and a half/twice that for AT infantry. Those numbers are likely to give you enough time to react in small skirmishes while concentrated fire will still take you down pretty damn fast.

[Lumberchuk]

I think tanks should behave similarly to BF however with more TTK of course. In BF as I'm sure you all know tanks are great on open ground but in tight spaces are very vulnerable. Since PS2 has about 10 times the players it only makes sense that the tanks be at least 3-5 times stronger armour wise. I also like the disable mechanic in BF personally as it allows for more interesting combat situations, and allows the infantry to feel like they accomplished something even if they don't completely kill the tank.

[kaffis]

Sure, PS2 will have 10x the players of BF... But it can have WAY more than 10x the tanks, too. Can't make them too hard to kill, or else they'll roll over everything. As 1-man vehicles.

1-man equipment should never be grossly stronger than any other piece of 1-man equipment. Tanks already have bigger guns than MAXes (which also require timers and resource expenditures, so those aren't useful balancing point arguments in tanks' favor), they shouldn't be preposterously difficult to kill compared to a MAX, too.

[captainkapautz]

Originally Posted by Lumberchuk

In BF as I'm sure you all know tanks are great on open ground but in tight spaces are very vulnerable.

wat?

Except when every Engineer is running a Javelin, every Recon a SOFLAM, and pretty much every vehicle got magical "I don't always lock on, but when I do it's across the map to fuck you up."-ATGMs.

Also love how ALL guided missiles turn into Hellfires with a SOFLAM.

[YaJackWagon]

hmmm...

I voted 4 tank hits before I read the rest of the thread. Never considered the shear number of tanks and AV that can be fielded...
My God, the scale of this game is blowing my poor BF2/2142 mind.


I'd say wait for beta. Though, I do like the point about how heavy assaults only get 5 rockets. So, yeah, 5 maybe 6 AV hits from behind - translates to 10ish AV hits from the front... 6-7 tank shells to the front.


betabetabeta SWING.
(not sure who I stole that from... sorry)

[Argg]

"...last as long as they did in WWII" -- you mean like say, an M13-40 or a T26? The Tiger is not the average tank for WWII re survivability. There were plenty of WWII tanks that were disabled or killed by the first hit by any serious AT fire. All the lights, most mediums, etc.

Nerf the Tiger! It's OP! ;-)

[captainkapautz]

Originally Posted by Argg

"...last as long as they did in WWII" -- you mean like say, an M13-40 or a T26? The Tiger is not the average tank for WWII re survivability. There were plenty of WWII tanks that were disabled or killed by the first hit by any serious AT fire. All the lights, most mediums, etc.

Nerf the Tiger! It's OP! ;-)

DUD WAT ABOT TEH KÖNIGSTIGER DEN??

Gotta admit some kind of Heavy/Super Heavy Battle Tank akin to the Tiger/Königstiger, or Maus even, would be kinda badass.

For the Warhammer 40k guys, think Baneblade.

Give it PS1 durability or more, really shitty speed and maneuverability and guns.
Loads of guns, small ones, big ones and even bigger ones.
Also make it cost a fuckton of resources.

[Vetto]

It needs to take a lot less then PS1, I call BS when a Mag tank can take endless punishment form a BFR and not only live threw it but take down the BFR, that a week bit to much.

[ParisTeta]

It should be design around several other factor, hit location and range. If you get close, behind the tank and suprise him, needing 8 shots would be a bad gaming expierence, while two shots in the front is also. I would say 4-5 shots for close combat, and 2-3 for suprise attacks (in tank vs tank), if you farther away 8-10 shots are more then fine.

Infantry is alway hard to balance, should be enough damage you don`t want to mess with them to long or to many at once, but on the other hand, to strong AV weapons makes you useless. I guess 6 hits on the back is ok, depending on other charistics like projectile speed, average success in even hitting.

[OutlawDr]

They have said there are hitboxes. There will be least front and back...and maybe left and right side. Plus we don't know if the game will calculate direct hits versus glancing blows from angled shots.

Lets look at PS1 stats:

Phoenix
3 shots to kill a MAX
6 shots to kill a Lightning
18 to kill a Vanguard

Striker
6 shots to kill a MAX
12 shots to kill a Lightning
36 to kill a Vanguard

150mm Cannon (Vanguard)
4 shots to kill a Lightning
10 shots to kill a Prowler

75mm Cannon (Lightning)
14 shots to kill a Lightning
36 shots to kill a Vanguard

I would expect shots from the front to be at most the above values, though I'm expecting lower shots to kill in PS2 for vehicles. Rears shots are going to be even less.

[Neurotoxin]

Lets play first before we discuss this? Also accuracy and rate of fire are not accounted for here, so it isn't really even a fair assessment. And does MAX AV count as infantry?

[super pretendo]

wait are there nukes

I voted five tank shots

[captainkapautz]

Originally Posted by super pretendo

wait are there nukes

I voted five tank shots

Only for the 30 kills streak.