Does anyone here actually like the bases? I dont. - Page 5

Crator · 2012-11-17, 08:53 AM

Originally Posted by Sunrock

Hmm I can sometimes feel it quite frustrating to be locked down into a stalemate for several hours without progressing the war effort. Just because you can take a base in 30-40 minutes does not mean the fight stop there.

But regarding what is best part of the game, or any PvP game, I have to agree with Conan.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PQ6335puOc

I can see how you might think that. And yes, long battles can get monotonous. You fail to see though that there are options for empires to think strategically against what they can accomplish on the map they are playing. What's forcing you to stay in that stalemate battle? If you don't like it because it's been going on for too long then do something about it. Attack the enemy at another location. This will cause that stalemate to break up. Also, another thing that helps break up those stalemates is the fact that we have 3 empires in the game. 2 empires could be going at it for a long time and then all of a sudden the 3rd empire starts taking territory that one of the other empires need to resecure. They must break away from the stalemate at this point.

So what I'm talking about is allowing the players to control/determine what is the best course of action to progress the fight, not bad base layout design.

EDIT: But there's also more to it then just that. They need to make the bases so there are tactical means to taking a capture point. What I mean by this is that, yes, bases/outposts do have better thought out layouts when it comes to where the spawn tubes and capture points are located, with a bit better defense for the defenders. Doesn't mean it's impossible for the attackers to take it though.

Tamas · 2012-11-17, 09:08 AM

Base interior - ok.

Actual walls/defenses - pointless... Too easy to attack in my opinion.

ChipMHazard · 2012-11-17, 11:13 AM

I like the bases just fine... Well I've never been that keen on the Amp station. I would like to see some more diversity in the future, which I'm sure we will be getting when they put in the interlinked facilities. I would also like to see some underground bases, perhaps on a volcanic world.

TheStigma · 2012-11-18, 06:21 AM

TL/DR warning

I find the bases a bit lacking and I think there are some design elements that are simply lacking in them to produce good fights (and perhaps most importantly to produce a feeling that this is actually a friendly base rather than just a combat arena).

The most major point I think is that the bases are just too open and unrestricted. Yes there are walls, but LA's swarm over them without a second thought. Yes there are gate-shields but they don't even stop infantry from passing through (why? ... this makes no sense to me). Unless a base is super-heavily defended and most of the turrets are manned and scouting for enemies you can simply walk right into a base as you wish and start heading to the nearest generator or similar target to do mischief - and in 90% of the cases you simply aren't challanged while approaching the base. Maybe a lone sniper will take some pot-shots at you, or a single turret. Thats about it.

In short there are not enough movement restrictions for enemies in a friendly base. This goes along with my second point:

Movement inside the base is as inconvenient for friendlies as it is for enemies. Pretty much anywhere friendlies can go, enemies can go just as easy. Towers - rather than being tough defensive structures are more like death-traps as enemies will simply jet up onto the walls (or walk through the gate-shield with impunity) and get easy kills on any defenders that are up there focusing on the outside. Anyone who has ever sniped from a tower knows what I'm talking about - and you probably eventually learned that you shouldn't do that anymore...

What we need are impedements for enemies that friendlies can bypass. Yes there are a few shields around, but they only protect the very core of the facility and are only helpful in delaying enemy capture once they are solidly inside the base anyway. We need some goddamn doors - like on the towers for example, and in a few strategic places along the walls so that friendlies don't have to run around half the facility to get inside. These should be hackable by infiltrators with suitable specs of course. We also need the goddamn jumppads to not work in the enemys favor. Right now they probably do more harm than good as they allow enemies to clear out unsuspecting defenders from the rear, sabotage or hack all the turrets, and conveniently get close to all the generators from any infiltration-point in/near the base (ie. usually their AMS). Only an idiot would design this as part of a base defence. Simply make them work only for the empire that controls the base. This would greatly slow down enemies and make their spread throughout the base a little more predictable at least.

I also think that walls should not be SO easily traversable by LAs. Currently they can get across anywhere they damn well please. Perhaps walls should be raised a bit so they can't be just jumped over - and either add 2-3 places where they are low enough to allow LA infiltration, or a shield (with generator) that adds extra effective height to the wall until it gets taken down.

The bottom line is that currently you just don't feel any more safe inside a base than you do anywhere else - because it is trivially easy for an enemy to just walk (or jump) right into one. If that gets fixed then perhaps basefights will feel a little more meaningful - and also give a sorely needed defenders advantage to this game where it currently feels like the game is only about attacking one target after another (perhaps the only exception so far is the crown which is genuinely hard to attack properly due to its natural defences).

Finally it would be nice to see a little more "proper" interior. It feels like this game is all outdoors with just some small mostly single-room shacks. Even the big bases like techplants are basically just a collection of single-room empty fluff-houses, and the massive structure in the middle is mostly just a solid statue with one big room for vehicle spawning and another smaller room for the SCU. I'm not saying that I necessarily want a ton of hallways-fights, but we really could use a little more interior and at least a few hallways here and there to make it feel like base we are defending isn't just some storage-yard. The only base that feels anything close to a proper defensible base is the biolab, but weirdly due to its design theme its almost like another smaller outdoor courtyard with buildings inside a dome and just elevated up from the ground =P

So in summary:
- Need (hackable) doors
- Need friendly-only jumppads (except when they are specifically designed for entering the base like on biolabs, vanu archives ect.)
- Need more or improved shields that restrict or slows down invading enemies
- Need overall more defensible bases
- Need a little more interior rooms that are meaningful or important in some sense

I don't think we need to drag PS1 bases into the discussion. That was a very different game in a very different time. It would be cool just for shits and giggles to have a few of them for nostalgias sake (ie. the ultimate fanservice) but let's not get hung up on them too much. They were in no way the ultimate base-design.

Holy shit that turned into a long rant. Sorry :/

-Stigma

Dkamanus · 2012-11-18, 09:02 AM

I think it really should depend on the importance of the facility to that continent. Eisa Tech Plant in Esamir is the single most important facility in esamir, for having the MBT spawned everywhere does make a difference. That base should have extra walls, around the main facility, in order to help defend it better.

In that case having extra generators for shield barriers. Some sort of SCU that makes the respawn times longer, before reaching the real SCU and taking it out. A generator for the single purpouse of turning the lights off a place, in order to facilitate those sneaky players in to try to get other objectives.

Generators for the Tubes to work. generators for the elevators. Generators for the TURRETS. for the rearm towers. There are LOADs of things that could be broken in order to render a base less defenseable. They just need to do them.

EZero · 2012-11-18, 09:06 AM

Honestly if I was the person designing the bases. I would make the facilities gigantic, as in the entire hex.

The current base walls would be where the outer edges of the hex is, with 4 ways to enter (north east south west) with 1 outpost right behind the door of each entrance. It would have a vehicle pad that can spawn MBTs so defenders can roll out with them or attackers can roll in.

The entire area (including the courtyards) where the current facilities are would be a huge multi story building. (maybe just keep to 2 floors with a roof to avoid player confusion)

Outside of the building would be another outpost with a vehicle pad that can spawn MBTs so you can have some tank showdowns / epic fights between the outpost behind the wall and the outpost outside of the building.

Then simply as you fight deeper into the facility, you'll encounter A, B, C and somewhere behind C would be the spawn room. This makes it so it's feasible for attackers to capture A easily, make B a point with alot of fights, and if you manage to get C would be where you would win.

The SCU would probably be placed between B and C in a basement with hallways leading down to it from both point B and point C. That way, attackers have a real chance of attacking the SCU a little past the midway point but also make it far enough for defenders to not have it camped 24/7 with reinforcements.

Thanks to whoever actually reads my entire post

PredatorFour · 2012-11-18, 09:41 AM

Originally Posted by EZero

Honestly if I was the person designing the bases. I would make the facilities gigantic, as in the entire hex.

The current base walls would be where the outer edges of the hex is, with 4 ways to enter (north east south west) with 1 outpost right behind the door of each entrance. It would have a vehicle pad that can spawn MBTs so defenders can roll out with them or attackers can roll in.

The entire area (including the courtyards) where the current facilities are would be a huge multi story building. (maybe just keep to 2 floors with a roof to avoid player confusion)

Outside of the building would be another outpost with a vehicle pad that can spawn MBTs so you can have some tank showdowns / epic fights between the outpost behind the wall and the outpost outside of the building.

Then simply as you fight deeper into the facility, you'll encounter A, B, C and somewhere behind C would be the spawn room. This makes it so it's feasible for attackers to capture A easily, make B a point with alot of fights, and if you manage to get C would be where you would win.

The SCU would probably be placed between B and C in a basement with hallways leading down to it from both point B and point C. That way, attackers have a real chance of attacking the SCU a little past the midway point but also make it far enough for defenders to not have it camped 24/7 with reinforcements.

Thanks to whoever actually reads my entire post

Unfortunately i read your entire post ........ j/k lol

I think your point about a base being a hex, making them massive is a great idea.

Kitsune · 2012-11-18, 10:00 AM

I dunno, the bases seem, unrealistic. Like, on Indar, the outpost called "Vanu Archives" You'd imagine some alien library, some large awe inspiring relic at least. Buuut no, just a bunch of generic outpost huts on a cliff.
Too late to fix that honestly.
Just give me pretty rivers and lakes in and around the bases/outposts and I'll be happy

MrDawkins · 2012-11-18, 10:02 AM

I like biolabs because they are the only bases where tanks and planes can't spawn camp you.

Buggsy · 2012-11-18, 10:23 AM

Bases are swiss cheese, vehicles can camp within 5 meters of the spawn tubes, we don't have effective CE to defend with, we don't have an AMS that can cloak; we are given no tools to defend with therefore nobody defends.

EZero · 2012-11-18, 10:50 AM

Originally Posted by elfailo

All you're going to do by adding even more generators and points to control is making it harder for small outfits to defend against large derpfits. You just can't be in all places at the same time.

If this was a reply to my post, then read below, if not please ignore.

Facilities already have outposts around it, tech labs for instance already have outposts surrounding them. At least the way I did my layout, you would be able to push infantry out of the base and back outside, where at that point you can go back to vehicle fighting / skirmish. (and no tank camping the last spawn, outposts are still fair game)

Another reason why I think a bigger layout benefits is because right now, if you look into a tech lab, you'll have HUD icon overflow on your screen.

2 separate icons for the outer gate generators
2 inner gate generators (the vertical and the horizontal stripe force field)
the generator for the SCU
the scu itself
the capture point

It will also reduce confusion new players will have when they look at it. I remember when I started I was like, holy crap there are so many icons on my hud, what do they all do? Versus if there's only 1-2 icons and they blow it up and they see the immediate effect and they learn.