Heavy Cloaker Revamped - Page 3

InternetZombie · 2011-08-11, 08:25 AM

Originally Posted by exLupo

I think the point of this armor is to give something more combat viable for players who have spent all of their time deep speccing into infil. Unlike a tank or air specialist, an infil specialist is still infantry. The proposal is to give something to infil specialists so they have an answer in case they are in a situation where their specialization has been, essentially, turned off. Granted, this happens to tank and air when the fight moves inside but that's a case of vehicle vs indoors whereas infil is infantry vs indoors.

I went ahead and bolded what was important. When you specialize in something you must accept the fact that 90% of combat is not going to be favourable to you.

Essentially an Agile+ carrot to help deep infil players join squads in combat while still being true to the "infiltration" theme. Additionally, this would possibly provide a unique niche, letting this combat viable unit slip past and disable automated defenses and then, unlike cloakers in PS1, continue on to engage the enemy with their squad.

When I'm an infiltrator in a squad I can fill a role, Stay back and rez my squadmates, heal, repair. It's increadable effctive.

Like all things with a game in development, you need to ask two questions. 1) Does this solve a problem. 2) How well (poorly to overpowered) does this solve the problem.

1) The problem as perceived by the solution creator: Deep infil speccers, using the PS1 model, would be the only infantry unit that would have to build a whole separate spec to participate in general infantry actions.
2) The evaluation: Removing invisibility and creating Agile+Sensor Shield doesn't sound OP up front. They'd be between as useful to vastly more useful than a tank or air specced unit using basic off-spec gear.

I fail to see where the problem is, infiltrators were never ment to be used in heavy indoor fighting.

Also consider other games. MW, MAG and PS1, off the top of my head, have support for radar invisibility so there is a desired niche for such an ability. Placing that ability in a tree dedicated to infiltration, one that traditionally has problems meshing with force-oriented situations, seems a fairly natural and elegant solution.

MW and MAG dont have people that can be completely invisable, also there is an implant in PS1 that does that....Why not just use that?

A similar example exists in TF2. The Spy unit traditionally was turned off by heavy fire chokepoints. Valve implemented the Dead Ringer which totally changes the Spy's playstyle, allowing them to bypass those chokepoints and keep functioning where, previously, they would have lost all purpose. The end goal there seems to be the same as it is here. Let specialists who are still operating in their intended area continue to do so without having to start over from scratch.

TF2 is a whole other beast, and trust me when I say that the Dead Ringer can fool people, once maybe twice before people start to realize how it works and then the spies die anyways

Can that Spy change to solder on his next death? Sure. Does he have to since the DR was implemented? No. The Spy player can keep doing what they enjoy and have practiced in (see: spent time skilling up for) instead of having to spend 2x the amount of time every other infantry does just to stick with their infantry squad.

Did you ever play TF2 before it went free?

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Personal note. Since the implementation of the Interlink, there has never been a good time for an infil to move with a squad. Your options, before cert proliferation, were to shrug as your buddies ran in, pick up agile and a suppressor or respec. Most people ultimately took the third option. This suggestion provides an option that doesn't involve giving up.

The Interlink is a single base type, and while you might not be valuable in that fight you will be valuable in others, accept this.

**Malorn** · 2011-08-11, 10:12 AM

In agreement with Zombie. Specialization is a tradeoff - more effectiveness in one area at a cost of effectiveness in another. Classes force you to make that tradeoff in some fashion.

Tank drivers and pilots are less effective outside of their vehicles. MAX pilots are less effective outside their suits. Light Assault will be less effective in places where their jetpacks aren't as useful. Engineers will be less effective when there's nothing to repair or destroy. Medics are less effective when nobody is taking damage or dying.

Every class in Planetside 2 will have built-in tradeoffs and infiltration is no different.

You have lots of options

1) Go someplace else where your skills will be more useful.
A lot of warfare should be going on in PS2 on the same continent and on different continents simulatneously. There is no need to confine it to a single base. I would expect the reason you aren't considering this is the current sad state that PS1 is in with its low population converging into one area at a time and conflict being driven by base captures. With the territory control and resource system of PS2 I expect this to change dramatically so if you don't want to fight at an interfarm you don't have to.

2) Be creative and find something within your skillset that you can do that will be useflul.
Zombie mentioned repairing/healing people and basically performing one-stop-shop duties. I had a few infils in my outfit who did that in the early days of PS and it was nice when our grunts didn' thave ot put away their weapons and repair up. I suspect it'll be a lot more valuable in PS2 when there's no 3rd person to watch around the corner while you self-heal. There could be other things you can do as well, like work on planting a virus or bring in an AMS, or scout out other entrances and see if there's one that isn't as heavily guarded. Or guard one of your key spawn points (like a tower/AMS).

3) Switch to a role more suited to the situation.
Higby also stated that we'd be able to learn the basic roles of other classes within a day, giving medic, engineer, and tank driver as an example. So having a light assault or engineer or something else to do if for some reason you simply cannot function as an infiltrator and cannot possibly find something you could be doing spend a day and learn another role that interests you and fall back to it in those situations. Medic and Engineer are obvious choices, and Engineer might be required anyway to unlock combat engineering which I would imagine you want if you're going to do a lot of infiltration, assuming they can still use CE. Higby also said we'd like what we see with the PS2 cloaking experience. Just have to wait and see what that is.

The solution is not to make every specialization work in every situation. That defeats the whole purpose of specialization. No one is forcing you to specialize deeply into one thing and completely neglect everything else. If you refuse to do that then accept that you chose that path and deal with it. If you can't spend a few days training up other classes that you fear you need to use for any significant amount of time then that's your own fault. If you can't find other ways to be useful within your role of choice then that too is your own fault. The paths exist, though in the context of current PS1 the population is too low for that to work out. I highly recommend that if your context is Planetside as it exists today that you take it with a grain of salt. It really is nothing like what it was in the first few years in its prime.

Huma · 2011-08-11, 08:40 PM

I understand where your coming from Malorn and I do all of those regularly in PS. But take a moment to look at what the classes mean for a cloaker.
First off they've made it so that you can no longer hack enemy vehicles. Ok so hacking is now relegated to doors and CCs now.
Secondly we don't have any verification on whether or not cloakers are going have the ability to heal or repair others let alone revive people.
Thirdly we don't have any verification that cloakers are going to get to use CE again or if their just getting boomers or what.
So that leaves cloakers with two things. Killing with pistols and grenades. The only good news I've seen so far is that the cloakers camo is getting fixed. So going of the information we have available and the knowledge we have regarding how restrictive the role system is going to be there's not a lot of options for cloakers at all. That being said considering the info we have to go off of I don't see hoe it would be so ar fetched to give cloakers te option to wear better armor. Otherwise at this point why bothe with cloaking at all.

Goku · 2011-08-11, 08:58 PM

Huge difference between a cloaker and a guy with shitty armor not being picked up on radar.

Huma · 2011-08-11, 09:20 PM

Originally Posted by Goku

Huge difference between a cloaker and a guy with shitty armor not being picked up on radar.

True but what else would you have them do? They'll be able to scout, kill a few people, and hack a door/cc. Not a lot of purpose to specialize as an infiltrator when it's that limited.

Goku · 2011-08-11, 09:49 PM

Switch to a basic grunt load out and be useful. That is what I would tell a cloaker player in my outfit anyway if cloaking is not beneficial at that time.

**Malorn** · 2011-08-11, 09:54 PM

Still pointless when the whole idea is based on interlink bases existing.

Huma · 2011-08-11, 10:38 PM

Not beneficial at that time. Ok so it's an infantry class that has no combat viability in a base but their only unique specialization requires them to go into a base... How does that make sense? And it's not just interlinks Malorn. There's also mosquito radar and motion sensors as well.

Goku · 2011-08-11, 10:50 PM

That is what SS is for to be honest. In fairly less populated bases with around a squad I have had many good cloakers give me a run for my money. Between boomering or getting the jump on me with their gun and at rare times a knife. 95% of the time I played PS I have had DL either, but I often could see cloakers enough when moving to quickly to kill them so I was no slacker when it came to killing them.

Huma · 2011-08-11, 11:32 PM

Originally Posted by Goku

That is what SS is for to be honest. In fairly less populated bases with around a squad I have had many good cloakers give me a run for my money. Between boomering or getting the jump on me with their gun and at rare times a knife. 95% of the time I played PS I have had DL either, but I often could see cloakers enough when moving to quickly to kill them so I was no slacker when it came to killing them.

That's true but we don't even know if cloakers are going to get boomers. All we gave to off of right now is the limited information regarding the restrictions on each role. Even if a cloaker is effective in a moderate base fight that's still cutting their role down to a handful if situations. It's like saying. Grunt is only effective if a fight in a base is really heavy. Not to mention that a lot of the fighting will be out doors as well.
As it stand right now I don't see a reason for anyone to really specialize in infiltration when it's so severely limited. The only reason I'm even suggesting armor for them s because there has to be something or them worth while. Otherwise it's like specializing as a light switch flipper.

Lonehunter · 2011-08-12, 12:05 AM

Huma you're still assuming way too much. We have almost NO information on ANY classes.

Originally Posted by Huma

As it stand right now I don't see a reason for anyone to really specialize in infiltration when it's so severely limited.

This is all I need to prove my point, but I feel like I'm trying to make a pervert forget how to masturbate. It just ain't happenin. Keep up the creativity, but please just WAIT FOR MORE INFO.

Edit: One thing I had to add, is the possibility of so many Infiltrator style bonuses they could implement that had nothing to do with PS1. Like a remote camera you can place on a wall. That's probly the only cloaker info come from Higby's mouth so far.

Goku · 2011-08-12, 12:06 AM

Like others have said we do not know what cloakers will have, but that will not stop us from speculating of course. A cloaker in PS if having combat engineering in my opinion used it often for spec ops with boomers for blowing tactical targets and not for the spits/mines. I think the devs do see that and hopefully will add in a heavy explosive specifically for cloakers allowing them to continue doing spec ops. I will say that is one area besides hacking cloakers often excelled in. Be shame for that to go away due to not having boomers anymore. With hacking gone I bet there is going to have be more cloaker abilities. Lets not forget there is a skill tree just for cloakers who knows what kind of weapons to gadgets you guys will be able to make use of.

This just came to me when I was typing out this post. The devs are talking about having customization for everything from how tanks are driven to weapon mechanics. Maybe they will go as far to add a trade off in the actual cloaker suit. From adding on armor plates to take less damage, but that will slow you down while being more visible. There is hit boxes in the game, so we could go as far to say there could be specific pieces a cloaker could put on from their chest to shins to take less damage. This probably is OP in some regard of course though. Not saying I want in game either as it just example of what possibly could be in there for cloakers.

Talek Krell · 2011-08-12, 12:09 AM

Is sensor shield not an implant that most cloakers would carry anyway? It seems like it would make more sense to just use agile and a better gun.

I think you're getting ahead of yourself here. As you've said, we have very little information. You're assuming that cloakers are going to be only losing functionality and not gaining any. They've told us that vehicles aren't hackable anymore, but I'll be suprised if they aren't adding in more things that are hackable. . .

That would put you roughly on par with our hypothetical dedicated tank driver running around with his BANK during an indoor fight.

Huma · 2011-08-12, 12:21 AM

Originally Posted by Talek Krell

Is sensor shield not an implant that most cloakers would carry anyway? It seems like it would make more sense to just use agile and a better gun.

I think you're getting ahead of yourself here. As you've said, we have very little information. You're assuming that cloakers are going to be only losing functionality and not gaining any. They've told us that vehicles aren't hackable anymore, but I'll be suprised if they aren't adding in more things that are hackable. . .

That would put you roughly on par with our hypothetical dedicated tank driver running around with his BANK during an indoor fight.

At least the tank driver has a job that's effective most of the time and very effective in their area.

Huma · 2011-08-12, 12:24 AM

True Goku I'm really hoping they give cloaker some serious loving because part of their charm was that you traded of combat effectiveness for increased functionality. Now without the functionality what is a cloaker getting in return for the trade off?