Science vs Religion - Page 2

Crator · 2011-09-22, 08:44 AM

Perhaps my comment was a little simple. Let me make it more sophisticated.

Science uses the scientific method to prove things. Religion follows blind faith, because there really isn't a way to test the things written in the bible.

CutterJohn · 2011-09-22, 08:46 AM

Originally Posted by Vecha

The point is..before they can prove...they must believe.

Believe brought about by the misinterpretation of evidence is fundamentally difference than belief in the absence or even in the face of contradictory evidence.

Individual scientists can be obstinate and make wild claims based on little, or poor, evidence. They recognized this own fault among themselves centuries ago, which is why the scientific method has error checking procedures built into it to minimize the effect of bad evidence, bad procedures, and poor logic.

A scientist can fool himself, or let himself be tricked, but science can't be, not for very long. Young scientists love nothing more than proving the old geezers wrong.

Firefly · 2011-09-22, 09:53 AM

Originally Posted by CutterJohn

Why is a 2000 year old book better at telling us how to live than a popularly elected government?

It started out that a popularly-elected government used that 2000yr old book to form the basic set of principles with which to govern, or rather, tell us how to live. But that's beside the point.

The point I wish to make in all of this is, why is a popularly-elected government better at telling us how to live than a 2000yr old book? I mean... I don't know about you, but my government isn't exactly doing a sterling job here. We're in massive debt; our politicians are worse than the Pharisees, Saducees, Romans and **** mentioned during the time of Jesus; and in order to remain a safe and inviolate nation we have troops all over the globe and the Patriot Acts I & II but yet we have hundreds of thousands of illegal immigrants coming across our borders with practically free reign, and some of them are smuggling drugs and weapons into this country. How the fuck is THAT safe and inviolate?

**Malorn** · 2011-09-22, 10:59 AM

Meh.

**Malorn** · 2011-09-22, 11:12 AM

Meh.

Wahooo · 2011-09-22, 11:59 AM

I don't know of any Jihads, Crusades, mass gedocides or ruthless dictatorships coming to power in the name of Science.

**Malorn** · 2011-09-22, 12:54 PM

Meh.

Crator · 2011-09-22, 01:49 PM

Yeah, but I don't discriminate. I don't agree with either group. Spirituality is much more a personal deal, and I get that.

Wahooo · 2011-09-22, 03:02 PM

Originally Posted by Malorn

I don't see any charities, shelters, and support intitutions in the name of Science either.
But religious institutions don't have a monopoly on these either. I'll give in that yes they have done a lot through history on this front but it is not exclusive to religious groups either.

Science isn't a religion. It isn't a replacement of a religion. It's simply a logical means by which we study our world.
And that is all I need. I'd love it if religious zelots understood that science isn't a religion, and most scientists don't treat it as such.
However, science is used as an excuse by Atheist missionaries in their quest to attack other religions, persecute their followers, and push their ideology, which makes them no different than the religions which they so hate.
And by attacking and pushing their ideology do you mean such hate filled things as defending evolution and trying to keep such crack brained ideas like "intelligent design" out of public schools? Maybe some individuals attack religion and try to justify their attack in the name of science but the scientific world really does not give a rats ass about religion until it starts to interfere with and fuck up with scientific education.
Persecuting others simply for having a religion or particular ideology with no other reasons than that is still the property of the religious. It seems to be part of that whole faith stuff.

.

Crator · 2011-09-24, 12:14 PM

Ah, the brain is a wonderful and mysterious thing.

Firefly · 2011-09-24, 12:39 PM

I was raised in a rather non-denominational background. My mother is Jewish. My father was raised Episcopalian, became a Presbyterian, then Baptist, then Methodist. He eventually became a Methodist minister when my parents divorced. During my upbringing, they gave a decent effort at educating me on the various tenets of their faith. I did not, at any point, feel that religion was shoved down my throat. I had the option of saying "I'm not going". I identify as Jewish, having had a bar mitzvah and time spent in a Jewish school.

I am more of an agnostic than anything. I don't know what's out there. My faith says that I'm going to heaven as long as I'm not an evil douchebag. So I live my life as best as I can, doing what I think is just, right, and moral as it pertains to myself, my sons, and everyone around me.

The one thing that I absolutely cannot stand are people who try to convert me to their cause with in-your-face antics and, when they fail, mock whatever beliefs others have because they aren't *theirs*. A few random Christians have done this to me. It's annoying. Shut up. I don't run around saying "We killed your lord!" so I'd appreciate it if you'd stop with the proselytizing. This includes militant obnoxious atheists. I know there are a few atheists on this board and you're just going to have to try and not get butt-hurt when I say this, *IF* you're the militant type that runs around mocking people for their beliefs: what you do is your business and what I do is mine, so respect that. You can be an atheist all you want. That's fine. I don't care. I don't try and convert you or lecture you on hating G-d (which is dumb since you can't hate something that doesn't exist, I know, I get it) or how you're going to Hell, or how you shouldn't say goddammit if you don't believe in G-d. So I'd appreciate very much if all the atheists out there *WHO ENGAGE IN THIS BEHAVIOR* would kindly stop being a bunch of elitist snob jerks by saying shit like "oh, silly Xtians with your fiction book". I get that you probably were tormented by the local Christian Bible-thumping Squad down deep in the Bible Belt. I'm not them. So be the better man along with the rest of us. Because nothing is more annoying than some hypocritical self-righteous asshole saying "DON'T THROW YOUR RELIGION IN MY FACE!!" and then turning around and throwing their lack of religion in someone else's face.

Live and let live.

Bags · 2011-09-24, 01:01 PM

oh, silly Xtians with your fiction book

Raymac · 2011-09-24, 03:53 PM

Originally Posted by Bags

oh, silly Xtians with your fiction book

No need to be that disrespectful of somebody's faith, dude.

Growing up in Catholic schools, I've evolved an interesting view on religion. I very much consider myself Catholic and I always will be, however, I do have issues with some of the dogma of the Church. Quick example, I think women should be allowed to be priests, and I also think that the Church will eventually allow women to become priests. The Church just moves at a much slower pace than the rest of society, and I actually firmly believe that it is good to have a counterweight to the fast-food knee jerk society that we have become today.

That means I believe the Church has their heart in the right place, they are just slow to make any changes at all. I mean the were saying mass in Latin up through the 1960s. LATIN. So, they change, just on a different timeline.

Also, I don't really like the title of this thread. I don't like to look at it as "Science vs. Religion", I view it as "Science + Religion". Considering how difficult it is to prove a negative, as much as science seems to want to try, they will likely never be able to prove that God doesn't exist.

I believe there is room to have faith and follow the teachings of Jesus, but still not turn a blind eye to the scientific discoveries made every day. My personal belief is that Jesus had a few main teachings:
1) Love God (whatever form He may be)
2) Love your neighbor
3) The spirit of the word is more important than the letter of the word.

To point #3, this is where I think many religious people lose their focus. It doesn't take a genius to twist words around to mean something different and totally contradict points #1 and #2.

Bottom line is, I don't judge people based on their faith (in God or lack of god), but I judge them based on how they use that faith to live their lives. I think it would be hilarious to see Pat Robertson and Bill Maher meet up in hell.

Sirisian · 2011-09-25, 02:07 AM

Originally Posted by Firefly

The one thing that I absolutely cannot stand are people who try to convert me to their cause with in-your-face antics and, when they fail, mock whatever beliefs others have because they aren't *theirs*.

I've been on a campus for a while since I work at a University, and this is very common. I always see the pairs of Mormons walking around talking to people. I got stopped by two of them and just listened to them and answered their questions. Interesting folks since they believe so strongly in what they're saying. It's not really worth anyone's time expressing your views to them since they're very set in their ways. I did get a laugh from them though since they asked "What would you say is the meaning of life?" and I was like "scientifically? Live to the age of reproduction and pass on your genes. A more relaxed answer? Make the most of things while you're here" and they stumbled. I think they expected something else, but I'm not sure what the normal response to that is.

I don't really deal with religion. All my friends are secular so religion never really comes up.

The only thing that bothers me is when religious people become political. I prefer politicians to take the Spock approach and focus on logic.

On the topic of science vs religion I don't really think they're against each other so much as Science has a nasty habit of proving religion wrong. The whole Earth is at the center of the universe deal with Galileo and the Church are the kind of troubling things. I'm just glad instances like that are less likely nowadays. That kind of stuff doesn't even really occur between all religions either. Some are a lot more open to change which is nice to see, but it also really makes me question why people would hold onto something that can change at a whim. The blind faith idea I have a really hard time buying.

On a side note I've taken a lot of history classes and it's odd seeing how religion has been used to control people through churches. Not all religions are like that but it really makes you question the validity of churches and their purpose. (Eras of divine rule, etc). Russian history in particular is full of this power of the churches idea in relation to blood lines and other connections. I think religion might have just been a really nice way to explain things back in the day, but it's just not standing on the same ground that once did. That is science is providing more answers than religion and will continue to do so.

Until the human brain is unraveled and things like "what makes up morality and choice" are answered, I think people will still turn to religion wondering why they find some things immoral while others moral and what that means. (Though philosophy has always tried to take that place as a more "scientific" approach).

I'll stop now since my view is kind of biased, and I don't want to offend anyone.

Effective · 2011-09-25, 05:24 AM

Couple of things, atheism isn't a religion, some very outspoken anti-theist/atheist (Hitchens, Dawkins, and a few more) do attack religion on a constant basis though for a variety of reasons. Also a theory is not the same as a hypothesis.

First we have to examine WHY a belief in a God/Gods exist.

The most likely possibility (to myself at least), is that supernatural beings were created to explain natural phenomena that were unexplainable at the time, such as lightning, storms, the stars, etc. God is often used (and still is today) to explain the unexplainable, this is called the God of Gaps.

Religion (most notably the Abrahamic God) has attacked scientific discovery and free thought for centuries, with unbending and outdated moral/ethical values that don't evolve to match an evolving society. Not to mention religion was often used to control the poorly educated masses by causing fear. "If you don't do X then you will burn forever in hell" etc. Science has continued to prove religion incorrect on matters related to the physical world for a few centuries now.

As an agnostic atheist (yes it is an actual stance), it seems to me that IF a God/gods exist, they don't care one tiny bit about this tiny speck in a back water solar system in a unremarkable galaxy.

We as people are better off teaching our children about empathy then teaching them about religion, they are almost guaranteed to turn out less dogmatic and more inclined to use critical thinking when using the thought process.

Ultimately my lack of belief is created by a simple concept, no evidence for the existence of a God/Gods. Also, I don't believe that religion is a bad thing, only when is starts to become corrupt form of controlling people.