News: PlanetSide 2 Backstory Henry Briggs Part 2

[Higby]

Great discussion! I can't wait to dig more into the mysteries of Vanu, the Ancients and what it all means. I will say one slight spoiler: the scientists and technicians that form the backbone of the VS are not being hoodwinked, they have knowledge of certain events past and (possible) future that the rest of the factions do not.

[Canaris]

Originally Posted by Higby

Great discussion! I can't wait to dig more into the mysteries of Vanu, the Ancients and what it all means. I will say one slight spoiler: the scientists and technicians that form the backbone of the VS are not being hoodwinked, they have knowledge of certain events past and (possible) future that the rest of the factions do not.

All of this has happened before and all of it will happen again?

[basti]

Originally Posted by Higby

Great discussion! I can't wait to dig more into the mysteries of Vanu, the Ancients and what it all means. I will say one slight spoiler: the scientists and technicians that form the backbone of the VS are not being hoodwinked, they have knowledge of certain events past and (possible) future that the rest of the factions do not.

Okay, seriously, shutup. You cant hook me up to a story and then deny me the possibility to keep reading. Ive waited for several authors to finish their book series before even start reading them, and you guys just completle screwed me!


But as we are here: Currently banging my head on the potential effects the artifact could have on Briggs. Knowing that he did suicide in the end, it seems much more than just a simple telepatic message. He touched it, and it seems to have changed him to some degree.

[Nobel]

The Vanu have a fascinating ideal behind them; and its one I'm not quite sure everyone has picked up on yet.

They are intentionally genocidal. They find genocide to be a good and useful tool for the evolution of the species.

For the Vanu; those who wish, above all else to see the human species reach its higher potential (whether it is through new technologies or a kind of transhumanism) simply must eliminate all those who do not see this way.

These Vanu scientists see that, Violence is inherently progress in nature; that stronger species are allowed to flourish and evolve because weaker species die. For the Vanu; they see the technological pushes that they are making to "evolve" the species through technology, instead of some kind of biological means.

These men have a very similar ideal to the futurists and fascists of the first half of our century; the only difference is; they see the difference between week and strong to be the the use of technology.

Higby has just given us the best possible reason for this in his response; the Vanu know something is coming, and they know humanity isn't ready for it. By using this competitive spirit; they wish to help advance the human race, so that we are ready for this challenge.

[Canaris]

I prefer to think that all VS have a mental disease stemming from to much exposure to alien artifacts.

The best doctors and scientist left in the Terran Republic have proscribed a 9mm lead tablet to the cranium as the best cure.....

[Xyntech]

Originally Posted by Nobel

The Vanu have a fascinating ideal behind them; and its one I'm not quite sure everyone has picked up on yet.

They are intentionally genocidal. They find genocide to be a good and useful tool for the evolution of the species.

For the Vanu; those who wish, above all else to see the human species reach its higher potential (whether it is through new technologies or a kind of transhumanism) simply must eliminate all those who do not see this way.

These Vanu scientists see that, Violence is inherently progress in nature; that stronger species are allowed to flourish and evolve because weaker species die. For the Vanu; they see the technological pushes that they are making to "evolve" the species through technology, instead of some kind of biological means.

These men have a very similar ideal to the futurists and fascists of the first half of our century; the only difference is; they see the difference between week and strong to be the the use of technology.

Higby has just given us the best possible reason for this in his response; the Vanu know something is coming, and they know humanity isn't ready for it. By using this competitive spirit; they wish to help advance the human race, so that we are ready for this challenge.

I don't think this is entirely correct. If they were intentionally genocidal, it seems like they would have struck the first blow of the war.

On the other hand, they may have foreknowledge of certain events. Waiting for the other two sides to weaken each other before going to war may have been a strategic choice.

The interesting thing about the VS is that it's almost like "What if there was a religion about powerful forces talking to certain 'chosen individuals,' that had prophecies about the future, and could perform miracles like raising the dead and walking (hovering) on water... except that it was all true." The place where science typically butts heads with religion is over testable results. If Vanu is able to provide empirical evidence for all of his "miraculous" claims, I could absolutely see groups of scientifically minded individuals falling into a somewhat cult-like existence. The difference would be that it was founded more on results than faith.

Just because it's founded less on blind faith doesn't make it any less dangerous of an ideology though. The VS may not have been duped into forming the Vanu Sovereignty, but as the war rages on, they risk becoming just as mindlessly driven as any other ideology, the TR and NC ideologies included, alongside historic religions and secular institutions such as communism.

Originally Posted by Canaris

I prefer to think that all VS have a mental disease stemming from to much exposure to alien artifacts.

The best doctors and scientist left in the Terran Republic have proscribed a 9mm lead tablet to the cranium as the best cure.....

VS: Hey, you're not a doctor!

NC/TR: This will definitely hurt you more than it will hurt me.

[Khrusky]

Originally Posted by Canaris

All of this has happened before and all of it will happen again?

... yeah I think I'll throw in with that one too.
Show us what you got, Highby!

[Higby]

I wouldn't ever call the Vanu "Genocidal". They definitely do not care about wiping out any ethnicity or religion, those typically "genocidal" raison d'etre don't apply to the VS at all.

[Xyntech]

Originally Posted by Higby

I wouldn't ever call the Vanu "Genocidal". They definitely do not care about wiping out any ethnicity or religion, those typically "genocidal" raison d'etre don't apply to the VS at all.

An NC defending the VS. My world is collapsing. I don't know what to believe in anymore.

I believe in sandwiches. Need more delicious food tweets.

That night shot was awesome, but it didn't make me at all hungry.

[Captain1nsaneo]

Originally Posted by Higby

I wouldn't ever call the Vanu "Genocidal". They definitely do not care about wiping out any ethnicity or religion, those typically "genocidal" raison d'etre don't apply to the VS at all.

Hey. Some of us still have our old motivations thank you very much!

[Xyntech]

Originally Posted by Captain1nsaneo

Hey. Some of us still have our old motivations thank you very much!

He's referring to VS in general.

Every group needs their crazy, fanatical extremists who give the rest a bad name, right?

[IceyCold]

In all honesty I really do not see the Vanu as being a "Fanatical religious group" as much as I see what I imagine the developers are trying to paint them as:

A very focused group who are trying to improve humanity for what they see as the best; with a severe case of tunnel vision as to how their vision could go wrong. To them Technology is the only way for mankind to move forward, and to their credit this is extremely true; without our technology we are nothing more than hairless monkeys. But the down side to this is that it CAN lead to fanaticism, which is not always based on religion either. I don't see the VS so much worshiping Vanu as they are blinded by the future they believe technology can give them.

This has been well done in all the Empires so far. A look at the TR and the NC:

TR:
In their own minds they are securing the peace that has prevented mankind from wiping itself out; however in the process the freedoms of the people have been nearly obliterated and all progress outside of "accepted" thinking has suffered. On one hand they have actually given mankind peace; on the other they have nearly destroyed what has made mankind so great: Progress.

NC:
To the NC freedom of choice is the most important part of what it is to be human. They represent the ultimate in personal progress and value the individual. However the problem with freedom is that too much of it allows for anarchy; the NC way of doing things opens up the chance for conflict anew. Although the individual is much more free and humanity as a whole can progress much more freely the trade off to this is peace.

[Xyntech]

Originally Posted by IceyCold

NC:
To the NC freedom of choice is the most important part of what it is to be human. They represent the ultimate in personal progress and value the individual. However the problem with freedom is that too much of it allows for anarchy; the NC way of doing things opens up the chance for conflict anew. Although the individual is much more free and humanity as a whole can progress much more freely the trade off to this is peace.

Let's also not forget that the most extreme versions of freedom end up in cave man style "might makes right" situations. If I want what you have, I'll kill you and take it. Or you'll kill me.

In that kind of worst case scenario, all society and progress would go out the window. Society has it's flaws and a lot of drawbacks, but it does a lot of important things for us as well. Society can level the playing field, so that everyone, weak or strong, smart or stupid, has the potential to make their own way and enjoy a good life. Of course, taken too far, this leads to TR style oppression, but there is certainly a middle ground between oppression and anarchy.

I'm sure that the NC see themselves as seeking that sort of balance, but the fact that they are dogmatically fighting against an established fascist state tends to indicate to me that moderation is not going to be at the top of most of their lists. The concerns of the other two sides, that the NC would plunge humanity into chaos, seem justified to me. Just as justified as the fear of TR stagnation and VS doomsday scenarios at least.

I like it because it seems like a perfect storm scenario, which it needs to be to justify this kind of conflict arising. All three sides have legitimate goals, but they have all become so myopic that they can no longer see the pitfalls that they hurtle towards.

I just identify most with the Vanu Sovereignty's root goals. I'm not the biggest proponent of stability/prosperity or liberty/freedom. Both are worthwhile endeavors, but I think that both are better in moderation. Moderation is a hard thing to rally behind. Technological progress interests me the most, so bring on the alien tech. At least if we destroy all humanity, we'll go out in style.

[Talek Krell]

Originally Posted by Higby

the scientists and technicians that form the backbone of the VS are not being hoodwinked, they have knowledge of certain events past and (possible) future that the rest of the factions do not.

It's reassuring to know that at least there are some motivations deeper than "I touched the thing, and now it all makes sense!".
Can I ask a favor though? The next time you're in touch with whoever is writing these, tell them I said:
"Please remember that it is important that the VS be formidable by their own merits. The Sovereignty of the first game had earned everything they had. They'd taken it, learned it, and made it their own. They needed no alien benefactor to hand them the assembly instructions and the operator's manual."

The original faction was worthy of respect. And they had the "moral ambiguity" bit down pat. I've always felt like the standard "techno-religious nutcase" label actually made them out as much more harmless than they really were. When you actually think about their philosophy and motives, the original VS were downright terrifying.

Originally Posted by Xyntech

I just identify most with the Vanu Sovereignty's root goals.

Problem is that we can't assume their root goals have remained the same. They've not been explicitly stated yet, and it looks rather likely that they've undergone some significant revision.

Originally Posted by Xyntech

Every group needs their crazy, fanatical extremists who give the rest a bad name, right?

Sure, but they're supposed to be the dark underbelly of the group, not the public face.

And for the people doubting the mind control thing and thinking that Briggs is just pursuing some new idea or concept, remember that it was Briggs who first reached the conclusion that Vanu was a god:

I believed because I had heard the word Vanu that it has to have some kind of meaning. Perhaps it was the name of the alien’s God, and the statue we found was his idol. Tom joked that Vanu was just the figure’s name; after all he’d say, we have Dorothy dolls and Quincy Quacks, so maybe the aliens had Vanu bobbleheads or something. Maybe he was an action figure based on some kid’s holovid? I remember feeling genuine rage for the first time in my life when he joked about that figure, and he could tell.

Blind rage at the mere suggestion that Vanu might not be that important. As though it was a deeply seated belief that he'd held his whole life, ingrained enough to be almost instinctive. The really tricky part of brainwashing someone is convincing them that they aren't brainwashed.

[FastAndFree]

Originally Posted by Talek Krell

And for the people doubting the mind control thing and thinking that Briggs is just pursuing some new idea or concept, remember that it was Briggs who first reached the conclusion that Vanu was a god:

Blind rage at the mere suggestion that Vanu might not be that important. As though it was a deeply seated belief that he'd held his whole life, ingrained enough to be almost instinctive. The really tricky part of brainwashing someone is convincing them that they aren't brainwashed.

He made a guess as to the identity of Vanu, don't take it as a declaration of belief
And again, the whole emotional thing was a brand new concept to him. That was in fact the first time in his life he could get angry -because a topic that was important to him was dissed as a joke, not because his supposed religion was mocked- is it a wonder he overdid it?

As a bonus point Higby outright stated that is not the case -thanks again for that-