Why K:D, Deaths, streaks and other stats are bad, and how PS2 can evolve the genre

[Raymac]

Originally Posted by Malorn

Just because its always been done does not mean its a good idea.

MMORPGs used to have long xp grinds and people expected this. They even had xp loss on death. Modern MMORPGs have evolved and moved away from these things. This is no different. Just because they've done it and it is expected does not mean it is a good feature.

I agree with you that there are better stats to track for Planetside, however when people expect a standard feature, that feature better be included, whether or not the elite think it is good.

Using XP loss on death as an example is not a fair comparison because people hated that stuff except for the most hardcore of players. The reason K: D is so common is because soooo many people actually do like it.

[ArmedZealot]

Originally Posted by Malorn

Diminishing returns.

So you are going to punish someone for playing more?

[ThGlump]

Originally Posted by Raymac

You played PS1 right? You know how good teamwork wins the day over a group of individuals just farming kills? That is the soul of Planetside and tracking K: D didn't kill it in PS1 and so it won't in PS2.

Yea. Teams get things done, deciding battles, and moving them forward. But they get less kills and worse k/d over someone who ignore goal of battle and just killwhoring.
Core gameplay supports teamwork, but for new players is shrouded under shiny killstreak popups, and k/d stat tracking, that they will focus on that instead trying to discover and understand core gameplay.
Thats what i mean when i say that killwhoring is more promoted, and cooperation is hidden somewhere under not seen and not promoted (unless someone who know about it show it to you)

[Sifer2]

I totally agree with the OP here. As soon as Higby opened the stats in the GDC vid, and I saw Kill/Death ratio I face palmed.

They really are lifting too much from Call of Duty/Battlefield just because those gamers are popular rather than thinking about what is best for Planetside. If they change nothing else it should be removing the "Deaths" stat. Since that one stat alone discourages way too many playstyles. And makes you not want to go anywhere your faction isn't already winning.

But yeah OP put forth a good argument here, and I hope the devs take it into consideration as they go forward with designing the stats tracking. The game isn't Battlefield at the end of the day so you can't port everything over.

[MrBloodworth]

Originally Posted by Raymac

standard feature

Its a standard features. IN SESSION BASED SHOOTERS WHERE THE WIN CONDITION DOES NOT MATTER.

Ahem.

Planetside is a war game. Empire/squad goals need to take precedence over all.

[ArmedZealot]

Originally Posted by ThGlump

Yea. Teams get things done, deciding battles, and moving them forward. But they get less kills and worse k/d over someone who ignore goal of battle and just killwhoring.
Core gameplay supports teamwork, but for new players is shrouded under shiny killstreak popups, and k/d stat tracking, that they will focus on that instead trying to discover and understand core gameplay.
Thats what i mean when i say that killwhoring is more promoted, and cooperation is hidden somewhere under not seen and not promoted (unless someone who know about it show it to you)

If you are so focused on playing as a team then why do you care about your K/D ratio?

If a newbie wants to join your team then you are going to have to train them to play as one. If you want your hardcore war realism then there you go.

Promoting shiny things is needed for Planetside to survive launch and to maintain through it's lifetime. The zerg will always exist and is a healthy component to Planetside. Removing features to keep people from zerging hurts the game as a whole to benefit the few.

[Malorn]

Originally Posted by Raymac

I agree with you that there are better stats to track for Planetside, however when people expect a standard feature, that feature better be included, whether or not the elite think it is good.

So what? What happens if they don't include deaths as a tracked stat? You think any significant amount of players will stop playing?

What about all the added enjoyment of everyone else in the game becuase it doesn't degenerate into deathmatch?

Using XP loss on death as an example is not a fair comparison because people hated that stuff except for the most hardcore of players. The reason K: D is so common is because soooo many people actually do like it.

They like it because its always been there and they like to measure their importance.

I'm not saying provide no measurement - I'm saying change it. Change it to something universal that takes many different factors into consideration, not just who can minimize deaths and maximize kills.

PS2 is free to play. I could make a VS character and go off into some remote part of a continent spawn him over and over again, and kill him with my NC character. I could pad the hell out of my K stat and appear all over a leaderboard. With dominations, kill streaks, etc. If I'm smart about and don't over-do it, nobody would be the wiser. Can't do that with score because diminishing returns is an obvious solution.

[Raymac]

Originally Posted by ThGlump

Yea. Teams get things done, deciding battles, and moving them forward. But they get less kills and worse k/d over someone who ignore goal of battle and just killwhoring.
Core gameplay supports teamwork, but for new players is shrouded under shiny killstreak popups, and k/d stat tracking, that they will focus on that instead trying to discover and understand core gameplay.
Thats what i mean when i say that killwhoring is more promoted, and cooperation is hidden somewhere under not seen and not promoted (unless someone who know about it show it to you)

It's an MMO and therefore a social game. People will want to play with the "cool kids" in the good outfits just like every other MMO. Cooporation is promoted by every fiber of the game. It IS the game. K/D tracking won't kill that.

Originally Posted by MrBloodworth

Its a standard features. IN SESSION BASED SHOOTERS WHERE THE WIN CONDITION DOES NOT MATTER.

Ahem.

Planetside is a war game. Empire/squad goals need to take precedence over all.

99% of shooters are arena "session based". So in turn, it's a common feature in shooters. It's a reality, for better or worse. That's why I said I like Malorn's idea of tracking other stats as well and let the players give more weight to the ones we want.

[duck]

I agree with OP. KDR is for games like BF3 and CoD, where the #1 goal is to kill enemies. PS2 should be more dynamic than that. It's about teamwork and variation in roles. Naturally, a heavy or MAX will have a higher KDR than say a support role like engineer. However, people will be biased and judge people based off their KDR rather than how much they contribute to the empire. This is something very crucial to the success and formation of the community in PS2.

Please PS2 developers, get rid of the DEATHS record feature. You can keep # of kills like in PS1 but do NOT record the # of deaths. It will only make things worse

[TESnake]

A system that came too late (and required a lot more tweaking) in PlanetSide 1, is the Support Experience system.

tl;dr - I agree with Malorn.

Kills can contribute to score, but are not the most effective way to raise score. Award more XP/Score for objectives, defense, and support-type roles. At the very least, rezzing someone with Advanced Medic should count as much as a standard kill. In an ideal setting, it should count way more.

If there has to be a FPS-type leaderboard system (there doesn't, but I doubt it will go away), go with something like this:

http://manual.americasarmy.com/index.php/Scoreboard

Kills aren't emphasized, and are only around 20% of the overall contributor to a person's Score.

[Furber]

/agree

[Malorn]

Originally Posted by ThGlump

Yea. Teams get things done, deciding battles, and moving them forward. But they get less kills and worse k/d over someone who ignore goal of battle and just killwhoring.

That is untrue. Team play can be both efficient and get things done. My outfit in PS1 had some of the biggest killwhores in it who ever played the game, but they also accomplished objectives and got things done. If "Score" were the universal stat, they would have been kings. As it turned out they were kings due to their killwhoring, but their objective-based play went largely un-rewarded.

If people think moving to Score as the universal measurement of success would discourage killing they are just plain wrong.

If it did, there is a simple solution -give kills more score weight.

Score does not mean kills become useless. Kills are important. Kills matter. Kills generate score.

Deaths are what is useless - not kills. Deaths provide nothing in terms of skill value. As someone said earlier in the thread - some professions are more prone to death than others. It doesn't mean they are less important, it just means they're riskier. Promoting someone taking less risk is just bad game design.

[Raymac]

Originally Posted by Malorn

So what? What happens if they don't include deaths as a tracked stat? You think any significant amount of players will stop playing?

What about all the added enjoyment of everyone else in the game becuase it doesn't degenerate into deathmatch?

No. Obviously I don't think people will say "It doesn't track K/D? Forget it then." Just like people don't say, "That car doesn't have leather seats? Forget it." However, it is a feature that people expect, and it does get factored into their assessment of the game. Just look at how the press from GDC have praised it.

Also, I think it is pretty ridiculous to infer that Planetside will degenerate into a deathmatch just because k/d is tracked. You know better than that, Malorn.

[ThGlump]

Originally Posted by ArmedZealot

If you are so focused on playing as a team then why do you care about your K/D ratio?

I dont care about my k/d and never will. I just feel it promote wrong aspect of planetside. And its sad to play with ppl that are randomly around, but are afraid doing something risky (like going through door into base). Thats even worse than mindless zerg, that dont mind being killed)

[ArmedZealot]

Originally Posted by ThGlump

I dont care about my k/d and never will. I just feel it promote wrong aspect of planetside. And its sad to play with ppl that are randomly around, but are afraid doing something risky (like going through door into base). Thats even worse than mindless zerg, that dont mind being killed)

You mean like real life where people feel the fear of death?