U.S. Military Taught Officers: Use ‘Hiroshima’ Tactics for ‘Total War’ on Islam - Page 2

Figment · 2012-05-11, 11:05 AM

Originally Posted by Malorn

I don't see the issue. Military preparedness and politics never go well together, nor should they ever be confused. Its the military's duty to plan for worst-case scenarios and prepare generals for doing the unthinkable. They have a lot of hypothetical scenarios that would blow our minds, like war with Canada or Mexico, or if the entire Muslim world got fired up against us. What if such a thing happened? Do you want generals sitting around with their thumbs up their asses not knowing what to do? Definitely not.

In the cold war they trained for all sorts of hypothetical invasions of Europe or pre-emptive nuclear strikes. The fact that they've considered how to combat a global religious uprising is not all that surprising to me.

Of course if you take it out of context and throw in some conspiracy theory it looks a lot more shocking. For context, I'd like to know what other situations they were preparing against.

From what I read it's not so much a defensive strategy against a threat from the east, but about how to become a threat to the east, pushed by an overly religious and paranoid subgroup in the military that demonises any and all muslems for the sake of eradicating that faith from the face of the earth. Basically, a crusade to push back another faith competing with christianity.

THAT is not exactly the same as say MAD.

**Malorn** · 2012-05-11, 02:25 PM

Meh.

Neurotoxin · 2012-05-11, 02:52 PM

WTF? Islam isn't a gang. You don't get jumped out. Any traditional steps taken are going to be in taking up the traditions of the new religion and rejecting the old ones. That is really true of ANY religion.

It isn't some video game where visible spirits and things in the UI identify a player as one faith or another, and changing religions is this magical ceremony where the old spirits are purged and replaced with ones from a new faith. This is real life, what religion someone practices is their own personal preference, there is no magic or mysticism that reinforces anything thought to be sacred.

As for Islam's plans for the world, depends on who you ask. That question is not something any one person can answer, because Islam doesn't operate under a well-organized system of democratic centralism, and so everyone will have different understanding and different answers.

ItsTheSheppy · 2012-05-11, 03:08 PM

Originally Posted by Neurotoxin

WTF? Islam isn't a gang. You don't get jumped out. Any traditional steps taken are going to be in taking up the traditions of the new religion and rejecting the old ones. That is really true of ANY religion.

In many Islamic countries, and according to the religion's own doctrine, the penalty for apostasy is death.

Anyway...

I'd personally be disappointed in our military if it wasn't taking every possible contingency into account. They could be a bit more PC in their word choices but, let's face facts: these are people who we train to butcher other people en masse so we don't get killed in kind. We need them so the rest of us can live our lives.

I don't see the harm in suggesting they maybe think a little harder about how they phrase stuff or approach subjects, and I certainly disagree with a great many of their policies and procedures, but it's a bit much to expect them to be the most social-conscious organization, since we ask them to think about and prepare for war all the time.

Neurotoxin · 2012-05-11, 03:26 PM

Originally Posted by ItsTheSheppy

In many Islamic countries, and according to the religion's own doctrine, the penalty for apostasy is death.

List, please!

ItsTheSheppy · 2012-05-11, 03:52 PM

Originally Posted by Neurotoxin

List, please!

Sure, as far as I can tell with only a cursory search, I've come up with:

Saudi Arabia
Sudan
Libya
Iran
Afghanistan
Somalia

Some other countries, like Egypt and Turkey, don't execute people as a state policy, but they still have trouble with their own citizens taking matters into their own hands. If you feel like ruining your afternoon, I provide you with some light reading.

It's pretty clear-cut that the closer you get to dedicated adherence to islamic doctrine, you find that there really isn't a whole lot of wiggle room for apostates.

Figment · 2012-05-11, 04:46 PM

Originally Posted by Malorn

That's what the writers of the article wanted you to think Figment. That doesn't make it truth.

There are a surprising number of people who believe 9/11 was an inside job. For some reason people find conspiracy theories more believable than the simple and obvious explanation.

The material presented with the story comes out of the lecture material.

And that suggests more than just preparing for a worst case scenario Malorn. That suggests creating a worst case scenario.

Now, if it's how you think it went down and it is extremely overblown, then why the investigation in how this could have happened?

Perhaps you underestimate the influence of evangelists in your country?

Figment · 2012-05-11, 06:06 PM

http://www.stripes.com/military-athe...roups-1.153105

http://rockbeyondbelief.com/2011/03/...-us-to-cancel/"

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/1016-01.htm

http://www.alternet.org/rights/50696/

Wow. Looking for examples of evangelical and christian use of "positive discrimination" towards spreading and supporting (extreme) christianity in the US army doesn't seem to be very hard. :/

In fact, it appears the enlistment ends with: "So help me God". Why the hell would you need to say "So help me God" when you join the army? Isn't that unconstitutional and against freedom of religion (especially when one is 'free' of religion)?

http://usmilitary.about.com/od/joini...thofenlist.htm

Doesn't this sort of stuff concern anyone? >.>

Neurotoxin · 2012-05-11, 06:50 PM

I think you are confusing fundamentalism with the actual religion, and acts done by fundamentalists in the name of a religion don't represent the religion. New Testament says nothing about bombing abortion clinics, for example.

I don't know that the ICC is a credible source of information, anyhow. I'll read more later. I'm pretty sure that the governments in those nations don't execute people for converting to another religion.

Can you give me a case of state-sponsored executions of people who were in the process of converting to a new religion, or who completed the process, and who were not charged with any other crime than religious infidelity?

This all reminds me of McCarthyist rhetoric, that anyone who was ever a member of the communist party is ALWAYS a member of the communist party, and that a person who joins the communist party dedicated themselves in full forever to that party so they can never be anything else. Never mind the fact that there is nothing wrong with the system of communism (that's a separate discussion - create a new topic if you want to take on communism) just like there is nothing wrong with Islam. Learning the fundamental philosophies of Islam instead of just allowing yourself to be told about them is the only way you can understand that Islam isn't an "in for life, or else" situation.

Figment · 2012-05-11, 07:04 PM

Originally Posted by elfailo

"So help me God" just means "I really mean it" when you sign a contract or swear an oath. It's just to verbally add weight to how bad it would be if you were to violate that contract, not to force you to swallow a whole religion. Of course the recording/document of you agreeing to that contract is what really matters.

If you look at the different links and how it was removed and later added under lobbying by certain people, then no, it does not represent that "I really mean it" factor. In fact, if a non-religious person would say that, then you have to question everything else too, tbh.

It is part of an evangelical missionary plan. An affirmation of what they say.

Figment · 2012-05-11, 07:19 PM

Originally Posted by elfailo

Terrible plan then. Goes to show how pathetically desperate they are.

*facepalm*

It's one facet where they use this to say "see, the state supports it, you would be unpatriotic if you do not conform". It gives them ways to reinterpret meanings of military rituals for others to include service to god and that it is beyond normal that one worships a god to the point it is incorporated in all the rituals. They literally redefine every single ritual for self promotion by plugging themselves in everywhere so you get little bits of exposure every time. The main conversion is done through money (only non-atheists got funding from veteran groups and therapy support), chaplains who visit the non-religious and they having to attend sermons, peer pressure from your fellow soldiers but mostly from officers, being the only groups allowed to give parties, ensuring there is mandatory practices that include religious prayer, etc...

Just read the stuff that's been reported...

In one case I linked to on the first page, a Jewish soldier was pressured to convert if he wanted to get treatment. He was not allowed to have kosher food nor access to a rabbi. Instead, a chaplain continously came to tell him he was wrong for being a ***. That sort of thing is NOT normal.

No single aspect like the phrase in the sentence will convert a person, it's the complete context that creates pressure. Whether or not it is effective, it is disturbing it is allowed, endorced and even supported by (evangelical generals and other officers within) the US army.

Figment · 2012-05-11, 07:55 PM

“Under the rubric of free speech and the twisted idea of separation of church and state,” reads a promotion for a book called Under Orders: A Spiritual Handbook for Military Personnel, by Air Force Lieutenant Colonel William McCoy, “there has evolved more and more an anti-Christian bias in this country.” In Under Orders, McCoy seeks to counter that alleged bias by making the case for the necessity of religion—preferably Christian—for a properly functioning military unit. Lack of belief or the wrong beliefs, he writes, will “bring havoc to what needs cohesion and team confidence.”

McCoy’s manifesto comes with an impressive endorsement: “_Under Orders _should be in every rucksack for those moments when Soldiers need spiritual energy,” reads a blurb from General David Petraeus, the senior U.S. commander in Iraq until last September, after which he moved to the top spot at U.S. Central Command, in which position he now runs U.S. operations from Egypt to Pakistan. When the Military Religious Freedom Foundation (MRFF) demanded an investigation of Petraeus’s endorsement—an apparent violation of the Uniform Code of Military Justice, not to mention the Bill of Rights— Petraeus claimed that his recommendation was supposed to be private, a communication from one Christian officer to another.

http://harpers.org/archive/2009/05/0082488

Nice, huh. Or this one?

To quickly recap, soldiers are directed to answer spiritual questions on a scale of one through five. Some of the questions include, “I am a spiritual person,” “My life has lasting meaning,” “I believe that in some way my life is closely connected to all humanity and all the world,” “I believe there is purpose in my life,” etc. As a result of his atheism and answering the questions honestly, Justin was “Red Barred” in the Spiritual Competency area, and according to the results, the Army feels that he faces significant challenges because it deems his Spiritual Fitness as an area of difficulty. Thus, the Army believes that Justin may lack a sense of meaning and purpose in his life and, at times, make it hard for him to make sense of what is happening to him and others around him.

The main issue that offended Sgt. Griffith was the Army’s belief that because he is not a spiritual person, he may question his beliefs, principles, and values, and that becoming more spiritual should be an important goal. The US Army has outwardly taken the position that an unspiritual soldier is an incomplete person, and that a lack of spirituality will somehow compromise their principles and values.

[more samples]

The training also included the Christian Flag Folding Ceremony, which is not the tradition that it is perceived to be. Part of the ceremony includes the twelfth fold, “for in the eyes of a Christian citizen, this represents an emblem of eternity and glorifies in their eyes God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost” As Chris Rodda points out, the flag folds mean nothing more than simple geometry

[more]

As Sgt. Griffith initially relayed, if any one of the areas of the SFT result in being “red barred", the soldier is then directed to participate in classroom or online remedial training to strengthen resilience in the deficient area. Thus far, more than 800,000 Army soldiers have participated. This is no consolation to the countless number of atheists serving in the Army that will be all but guaranteed to fail in the spirituality area. They will be unconstitutionally forced to participate in exercises that use religious imagery to bring them up to a satisfactory level of spirituality.

http://www.examiner.com/article/us-a...have-a-problem

Natir · 2012-05-11, 09:03 PM

Originally Posted by IDukeNukeml

Fuck all of the dumb shit.

When they can Hijack airplanes and fly them into OUR population, that is when THEY decided to make civilians expendable.

Glass it all. They would if they could.

It was not about civilian deaths, just like how Hiroshima and Nagasaki were not about the death toll. It was about showing the world what they were capable of. When we dropped the bombs, it was at the start of the Cold War. We didn't drop the bombs to just say "Hey look, we want this all to stop." It was about showing the world what we are capable of and that we are willing to go to such extremes if need be. That was their way of showing us what they were capable of doing and how far they are willing to go.

Same thing when the Pentagon said that if a cyber attack ever leads to the deaths of civilians, we will launch a kinetic attack on whoever is responsible. Most cyber attacks are about espionage and stealing information though. When Russia invaded Georgia, they crippled their communications and power via cyber attacks and rolled in with ground, sea and air troops.

CutterJohn · 2012-05-11, 10:23 PM

Man, I'm glad I was in the Navy. Never heard a whiff about god or jesus or anything.

Noivad · 2012-05-11, 10:44 PM

Wow what a topic of mis information

1st since this topic is about the US Military, of which I served 18 years, in the areas of Military Operations and Intelligence from Battalion Level through Theater Level Operations you now know my perspective. I want to state my views based on Military law, and the US Constitution, The Bill of Rights, The Geneva Convention (all Ammendants) and personal Knowledge in planning for Military Actions both on US soil and foriegn Soil to defeat the enemy whomever it was durring that 18 years of my service. It does not include the thoughts or ideas / ideals of any countries, but that of the United States of America. I was Non political in service, as it was frowned upon for certain Military Occupational Spcialities to be so. I did not vote for any political party. I considered myself a non denominnational christian. I believe in the Constitution of the United States, and swore a oath to it.

It should also be noted that even during peaceful times or the state of "Peace", that the United States has always been at war. The very idea of the United States and all it ideals is an abonimation for most of the world, and most of the worlds religions.

2nd:

Concerning statements about the USA and Religion - The First Ammendant of the US Constitution states -

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

This Ammendant:

1. Prevents the US Government from making a Single State Religion.
2. It stops the Government from not allowing you to practice any religion you want.
3. It prevents the government from stopping you to say whatever you want to anyone.
4. It prevents the government to suppressed news from any form of media.
5. It allows you the right to assemble as a group, with friends, or anyone, anywhere.
6. It allows you to petition the government for or against anything you feel the government should or should not do without retribution from the government.

Please Note there is No such thing as freedom from religion ever mentioned in the US constitution or the bill of rights.

There is freedom of religion. Meaning any and all religions are allowed in the United States Of America and all US citizens have the right to practice anyone of them. It is considered a fundamental human right. If you don'r want to practice religion that is also your right.

Most countries do NOT have this right, or any of the ones in the first Ammendant.

3rd. The National Security Act of 1947 defines the structure and responsiblities of the United States Military and who is responsible to whom. This includes Agencys Like the CIA, and other classifed Agencies.

4th National Security is any requirements needed to insure the survival of the United States through the use of any measure that becomes necessary on a battlefield, or global theater of operations.

"The meaning of National Security means freedom from foreign dictation."

"National security then is the ability to preserve the nation's physical integrity and territory; to maintain its economic relations with the rest of the world on reasonable terms; to preserve its nature, institution, and governance from disruption from outside; and to control its borders."

Major Religions listed by populations

1.Christianity: 2.1 billion
2.Islam: 1.5 billion
3.Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist: 1.1 billion
4.Hinduism: 900 million
5.Chinese traditional religion: 394 million
6.Buddhism: 376 million
7.primal-indigenous: 300 million
8.African Traditional & Diasporic: 100 million
9.Sikhism: 23 million
10.Juche: 19 million
11.Spiritism: 15 million
12.Judaism: 14 million
13.Baha'i: 7 million
14.Jainism: 4.2 million
15.Shinto: 4 million
16.Cao Dai: 4 million
17.Zoroastrianism: 2.6 million
18.Tenrikyo: 2 million
19.Neo-Paganism: 1 million
20.Unitarian-Universalism: 800 thousand
21.Rastafarianism: 600 thousand
22.Scientology: 500 thousand

Out of all of these religions, only one of them practice violence on a daily basis. That is Islam. Islam is comprised of two groups Shiite and Sunni - Shiites are the ones who are practiceing terrorism. NOT all Shiites are terrorists. Shitiites consider anyone who does not practice Islam by the rules of Mohammad as infindels.

Anyone who does not believe in the Koran and Mohammad is an infindel, and is subject to death.

Plain and simple. The recent wars are not about oil, or territory, or stuff. It is a religious war, conducted by a people who do not have the A bomb yet. But they are somewhat effective in the ways they have changed the worlds behavior towards them.

They really only understand the concepts of their religion and will never ever conform to western, democratic, or religious ideals.

The Crusades from the 11th to 13th centuries, were against islam and Muslims who practiced the religion. This war has never stopped. It has been continued over the centuries. It has only been recently in modern history where higher order weapons are currenlty used. When they have the A bomb they will use it.

So the modern moral dilema is born. What to do with them. You can't talk to them about it they have proven through history for centuries, that they will not change their religious ways.
They will either convert you to Islam as a 2nd citizen to be ruled over or they will kill you as a infidel. There really is no other choise. we either beat them back down with as little loss of life on our sides, or fall to their believes, give up our freedoms, or die.

BTW this link is to the commands of the Koran to Kill infidels. They still do this stuff today in the modern world.

http://www.wvinter.net/~haught/Koran.html

I like this one for thiefs my self

Koran "sharia" punishments:

As for the man who steals and the woman who steals, cut off their hands as punishment for what they have earned, an exemplary punishment from Allah. - Surah 5:38

I will also state that I can see that a few of you probally thought that the movie a few good men was great, with the actor who was going to leave the United States to live in some other country after 911 because he was afraid, whats his name, oh yea, Tom Cruise, the Victor in court against the Marine Officer Jack Nicoleson.

I like these lines because your still saying them here. history is repeating itself.

Jessep (Jack Nicholson): You want answers?
Kaffee (Tom Cruise): I think I'm entitled to them.
Jessep: You want answers?
Kaffee: I want the truth!
Jessep: You can't handle the truth! Son, we live in a world that has walls. And those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago and you curse the Marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that Santiago's death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives...You don't want the truth. Because deep down, in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall. You need me on that wall.
We use words like honor, code, loyalty...we use these words as the backbone to a life spent defending something. You use 'em as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide, then questions the manner in which I provide it! I'd rather you just said thank you and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you're entitled to!
Kaffee: Did you order the code red?
Jessep: (quietly) I did the job you sent me to do.
Kaffee: Did you order the code red?
Jessep: You're goddamn right I did!!

BYW Jessep - Tom Cruise, never did leave the United States.