SoE should invite hackers to break the game

[FreekilXAlpha]

Originally Posted by Shigins

Ok as a person with a degree in the subject im going to stop all this bitching...

a Hacker = someone who likes to play with code and find vulenarbilities

a Cracker = a Malicious person who attempts to cause damage by performing hacking techniques

THERE A DIFFERENCE!!!!

Please dont post on the subject if you dont know what it means

Originally Posted by Chewy

Im kinda certain that you have that wrong.

Hacker- Anyone that abuses code of any type to gain in one way or another
Cracker- Anyone who's job is to find errors in code that may lead to abuse

Hackers are the guys that use aim-bots and such. Crackers are the ones that are paid to find the loopholes or back doors in code so that they can be fixed.

By technical definition of many jargon files, Shigins is correct (see: http://www.retrologic.com/jargon/B/black-hat.html )

But if you search the broad source that is the net, you generally wont find a any real consensus, but most hackers i know like to use the "hat" reference. Here's the types I've ran into:

White hat: Considered the good guy, these are our system administrators, and from time to time, our moderators. Their general duty is maintaining, protecting, reinforcing and fixing problems.

Black hat: Considered the bad guys, these are what the general populous consider as "hackers", "crackers", "phreakers", and the general in game cheaters. In reality they are the guys that make the malicious software, not necessarily the guys that use it. But again, if they made it, they generally intend to use it.

Grey hat: A person that doesn't take sides, and does not have malicious or benign intent. This is what the majority of real life hackers, crackers, and phreaking are. If you have the skills, and practice, you fall into this category.

Blue hat: (debatable) This is a term used by Microsoft for the white and grey hats that they higher to do penetration tests. Name is based on the idea of blue and orange morality (not good and evil). Best summed up as hackers for higher.

Hacker: Shigins is mostly correct on this, however a hacker doesn't necessarily find vulnerabilities. see link: http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/H/hacker.html

Cracker: Chewy is somewhat correct on this, as part of cracking does require finding error in code, however its the use of this technique that determines whether the hacker in question is a white, grey, or black hat. But in reality cracking is simply a technique or method. for more information see: http://catb.org/jargon/html/C/cracker.html

Phreakers: the proto-hackers. They applied the hacking method to phone networks, and started hacker culture as we know it. see: http://catb.org/jargon/html/P/phreaking.html

Script Kiddies: a would be hacker who uses the tools and programs made by coders and hackers. In game cheaters who use aim bots are considered this by the majority of hackers. It should be noted that most hackers will start out as script kiddies unless they get a more formal education in coding.

for more information on hacker culture, i recommend this website: http://catb.org/jargon/html/

I can't stress this enough: Hackers and Crackers are not evil or malicious; in fact a hacker or cracker who is good at what they do will be unknown by you, unless they want you to know their handle. Intent defines your hat, not just the method.

[RadarX]

Originally Posted by Nasher

But those are just players reporting stuff they come across, usually after the damage has been done. They are not knowledgable enough to properly test for vulnerabilities.

After Sony got hacked last year and were storing data IN PLAIN TEXT. I'm worried that they really don't know what they are doing when it comes to security :/

You'd be very surprised what "average players" can be capable of breaking. I know it may be difficult to believe as you can't see what we do, but i assure you a lot will be caught in Beta.

[BigBossMonkey]

Originally Posted by RadarX

You'd be very surprised what "average players" can be capable of breaking. I know it may be difficult to believe as you can't see what we do, but i assure you a lot will be caught in Beta.

Please dont ban me for hacking because I'm going to totally try and wreck stuff.

[SniperSteve]

That is actually an interesting point. Are we allowed to try to hack in beta? o.O

[CidHighwind]

The thing is, the line of what "hacking" is can actually be established in the beta. The beta testers should be the ones who discover what is possible legitmately and what is actually going beyond the design ambitions of the devs in an unconstructive way. 'hacking' as we know it only really becomes firm past release because of the fact that a hard line is established by whatever the balance is established as at release.

In a sense, we are all hacking, because we are being pushed into coding that is inherently incomplete. We are intended to stumble into those holes. That's our job.

[Jinxsey]

The function of beta testers is to break things in a controled and structured environement, before handing the broken things back to the devs and then carefuly explaining what actions you took to break them in the first place.

I imagine, so long as you behaved in a forthright manner the PS2 team would be only too happy for you to go nuts trying to break their game. That's kinda what beta is all about.

[Revanmug]

Originally Posted by SniperSteve

That is actually an interesting point. Are we allowed to try to hack in beta? o.O

That will depend on your definition of "trying". Sadly, if some people "try" to help, some will "try" for the pleasure of breaking if you understand what I mean. Some element in the testing phase will be alot harder to actually test.

I doubt they will "permit" it for that very reason. If you do it for the good reason and actually succeed and report it, you better be careful.

[Thoreaux]

I think it'd be a pretty good idea to have an acknowledged-but-not-advertised program of rewarding those who come forward with information about previously unknown hacks or security vulnerabilities (provided there was no evidence they had exploited them or profited from them). That's give people some incentive to report stuff to SOE, if they knew they weren't just going to get their account banned for trying to help.

Poor management of stuff like this turns white hats grey. Speaking of which, a nice reward might be a snazzy in-game hat.

[Trafalgar]

Originally Posted by Chewy

Im kinda certain that you have that wrong.

Hacker- Anyone that abuses code of any type to gain in one way or another
Cracker- Anyone who's job is to find errors in code that may lead to abuse

Hackers are the guys that use aim-bots and such. Crackers are the ones that are paid to find the loopholes or back doors in code so that they can be fixed.

Your certainty does not make you correct.

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

Hacker (term), a term used in computing for several types of person:

• Hacker (computer security) or cracker, who accesses a computer system by circumventing its security system
• Hacker (hobbyist), who makes innovative customizations or combinations of retail electronic and computer equipment
• Hacker (programmer subculture), who shares an anti-authoritarian approach to software development now associated with the free software movement

The second and third definitions are older, along with the definition of "cracker." That definition was misappropriated and crackers were referred to as hackers by the media, pissing actual hackers off, etc etc, leading to the situation today where the public thinks that hacker = evil, when originally it meant something good, and the good meanings are still in use despite the misappropriation of the word for a negative meaning.

[Edit: Of course, I'm going by my own memory, which could also be fallible as well - you never know - and by what I quoted from wikipedia, which might not be quite the same as what other locations would list, but seems close enough]

Your definitions don't match these, either. Perhaps these links will help you understand why.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...certainty-bias
http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/...-about-memory/

[I bet there are 10 posts already and the forums will probably post this without showing them to me.]

[Edit: Remarkably close!]

[MonsterBone]

Look anyone messing around hacking the game beta test or not will be in violation of the coc and terms and conditions of the game.

And no doubt will get their asses IP and hardware banned.

[Espion]

Originally Posted by RadarX

You'd be very surprised what "average players" can be capable of breaking. I know it may be difficult to believe as you can't see what we do, but i assure you a lot will be caught in Beta.

I can't remember for sure, but I think it was FireFall that recent gave the OK to hacking in beta so long as the player reported what they had done and didn't share the cheat with anyone else. Doesn't seem like a bad idea imo.

[starshine]

this is what beta's for. beta isn't just some shiny VIP-pass for early access to the game. play beta, report hacks, hacks get fixed. the fact that damage has already been done doesn't matter coz as TB so aptly puts it "beta is beta"

do not hack, reporting is our responsibility, unless one is specifically asked to by the company.

[Otleaz]

Originally Posted by BigBossMonkey

Please dont ban me for hacking because I'm going to totally try and wreck stuff.

In beta, this is usually handled by getting permission and reporting your findings to the developers. If you do it without getting permission you are probably going to get banned.

[SKYeXile]

hacks have been a thorn in SOE's side for like a decade now, i think they will be onto this shit.

[Logon]

I've acually always hacked games to learn how they work, never every played with the ones i've figured out tho.
RadarX if i reverseengineer stuff in the beta and report it will i be banned for modifiying my client?