US election system. Is the US really a democracy, or a duocracy?

[Malorn]

Meh.

[Vecha]

Originally Posted by Malorn

Cuba's so great it's citizens can't wait to leave and tell the world about life there.

It's not the greatest place in the world, but neither is the US. I'd like to think my country is best in the whole wide world.

But when my own country says, "Fuck you. I don't give two shits about your chronic medical condition. Luck of the draw. See you in Heaven! God Bless You!" I tend to second guess that thought.

(edit. That was an example. I have insurance. A job. etc. I was *this* close from not getting insurance due to preexisting condition. I got a letter from the DOD stating I had their insurance...blah blah. And that took off the pre-existing waiting period. My point is...we can do better.).

[Malorn]

Meh.

[Sirisian]

Originally Posted by Malorn

Cuba's so great it's citizens can't wait to leave and tell the world about life there.

It's not great for everyone. That's the problem. We have the same problem in the US with homeless people and the unemployed and massive prisons. The system works for a lot of people and others are crushed by it.

Also you know the numbers for immigrants using illegal means isn't that high. The US allots 20K visas a year which people use. I was just looking at this. Comparing it to say immigrants from other countries it's basically identical. The severe limit on visas might be the problem.

Seriously it probably sucks being born on an island country.

Did Malorn seriously just link that image? Someone missed out on world history.

[Vecha]

Originally Posted by Malorn

So a medical system in need of reform = completely broken system of government?

Cuba has a great solution. They ask you if you like their medical system. If you say yes you get to live.

I'm not saying to throw out our constitution, dismantle everything. I'm saying...Look at what they are doing right. And not just them, but Europe, Asia.

But, at the same time, look at what they are doing wrong.

There is too much Boogey Manning/Strong Rhetoric being flung around. It is holding us back as a country.

Originally Posted by elfailo

Wouldn't trade freedom of speech for 0.05% extra literacy rate if I was American. Besides, it's easy for Cuba. They don't have hordes of illiterates flowing over the border and dragging the average down.

I don't think I've read a single post that says, "Let's all move to Cuba! (OR) Let's adopt the Cuban form of government to a tee!"

[Figment]

Originally Posted by Malorn

In this thread an anti American with no understanding of the US government calls the creators of the greatest nation on Earth nothing special.

Figments ignorance is only matched by the irrelevance of his country.

Utter fail on all accounts out of patriotism patriotism patriotism and superiority complex out of patriotism.

It's getting old Malorn. VERY old. Visit another country for once. Maybe you'll learn something.


Being critical on US = triggers extreme defensive patriotism and bias that you must hate America.

Uhm... sure. I mean clearly if you criticize anything yourself, you must hate it. Awesome logic. Might go for you, maybe you're that hateful a person, but that doesn't go for everyone else. Mostly says something about your worldviews Malorn.

Being from another country = "must be worse than us, cause us is great, no greatest! Don't know why though cause I know shit all about others because I'm not interested, I'm ignorant, but they must suck because they're not us! My knowledge of history is also limited to US related things, even though we have no deep historical background and most of it involves stealing territory from other nations and peoples and then suppressing them by a majority system, but that's not tyranny, that's republic!"

Indeed.

Stating the founding fathers are just people and may not have been right on all counts and there's room for improvement = "how dare you criticize my personal heroes and idols?! They awsum!!!@22!!!12!"

As said before, some good ideas there to a large degree loaned from France, Netherlands and the UK and a definite improvement over what you had with the UK colonial rule, but not by definition a perfect system. Still fallible people and in need of amendments and capable of disagreeing to a incredibly large degree and expecting a revision every now and then when something turns out to have different needs. Just because they founded your country doesn't mean they're the epitome of awesomeness or that you understand them better than an objective foreigner.

Objective yes. You're the subjective one because you're part of the system and indoctrinated by it.


Malorn, we're a nation of 17 million and the biggest foreign investor in the US after the UK and pretty much equal the entirety of Asia's investments in the US. You know. With 17 million people equaling the investments of approximately 4 BILLION people. Yeah we must do everything utterly wrong and be a fifth world nation that's irrelevant to the world!

I know you're a troll and like to make this be about us, but you're not a very good debater with your continuous use of strawmen that can easily be applied to the US on each count. As you can tell from the first post, I wonder because we have much better protection and representation of minorities within our country. Something you cannot even begin to imagine. No, you just fear different systems because you don't know anything about it and compare everything to extreme socialism.

You show some image of a Cuban being shot decades ago (and of course you make a reference to Cuba, probably a trauma by not being able to save it for democracy from a couple dozen rebels...). Of course we can give you race riot footage and police brutality from your own country from within a decade later due to a system of repression that still lives on in part today.

You're so stuck up your own arse that you don't want to see your system is a dictatorship though. Mind, Cuba is probably one of the worst countries in the world and I completely agree with Elcyco that freedom of expression etc is more important. But on the other hand, literacy AND freedom of expression is even better. If I'd have the choice to migrate to either the US or Canada, I'd even go to Quebec over the US. And they speak french!


I mean, you can bring up **** being gassed. We can bring up your system of apartheid that's only been gone for a few decades and are still trying to keep minorities from voting in states by using your tyranny of fake majority system.




How can you claim tyranny of the majority from other systems if every single state of yours is a one party dictatorship that MIGHT switch now and then to ONE other party, but nothing else?

[Figment]

We can crash the NYSE by burning ING to the ground :P

And by blowing up Ahold disrupt the entire US supermarket food supply system.

[Malorn]

Meh.

[Figment]

Originally Posted by Malorn

So is this entire thread about your lack of understanding of the Electoral College? Do you need a history lesson?

As said before, you're a horrible debater.


This is about Representative Elections being preferable to the Electoral College. Since you don't have a history with representative elections you can try giving a history lesson, but you don't have any history to go on. We do however, so if anyone needs a history lesson it's you and if anyone can give it, it's us.


You think it's lack of understanding without comprehending that someone can actually understand the EC, evaluate it and come to the conclusion it's a rotten, corrupt system that invokes dictatorial behaviour by parties that don't even need to have an absolute majority vote and encourages polarised voting because the people you want to vote for only diminish the chance of the second best option losing and thus increasing the chance of the worst option "getting all".

Your EC system is a divide and conquer system, which your populace understands so they try to unite in two parties, or abstain from voting.


Meaning it's great you can express yourself in public, but have no chance in hell of getting your prefered policy in the government, leading to your government being seen as the enemy as it does not represent you nor your interests and hence why you are so hostile to your government and want "protection from it" in the first place.

They don't represent your interests.


In a Representative Election, at least some people WOULD represent you personally much better and you find various forms of majorities with people who can agree with you. If you don't like the policies of the big parties, you can elect a different majority the next time and directly influence the majority mix you would care for.

You could have Ron Paul or whoever else you want in there, with his own party and his own time and even influence on the government because people would have to compromise directly with these groups to get a majority in a mixed majority. You could for example have the right wing of the current democrats work together with the left wing of your current Republican party, instead of just the blocks on the far left of the Democrats with the right of the democrats or the blocks on the left of the Republicans with the extreme right of the Republicans.

You don't have a choice. You've stated many times you don't trust the government. So much for your awesome founding fathers who created a government you can't trust. And why not? Because they have no reason to do something for you: they get in control anyway, because they don't have the option to really lose: if they lose, they'll get back in charge guaranteed in 4 to 8 years as there are no other options and especially sensitive to corporate corruption.

It makes your political parties lazy, radical, corrupt and uninterested.

[Malorn]

Meh.

[Neurotoxin]

Once again, the people have no direct representation under that system. These elected officials don't represent us, don't consult us, and do not work for the working class. When workers have a grievance, they can protest in the streets at the risk of getting arrested or getting assaulted with a variety of deadly "non-lethal" weaponry.

If you love your system so damn much, open it up, make a fourth branch, the Populous Branch, and let it be the tiebreaker in any two-way ties.

[Figment]

You clearly have no idea what a majority tyranny is Malorn.

It is a majority determining everything on their own. This is only true For one or two party systems. Basically I find the Republican party to be a prime example of fascist dictatorship in that respect. They rig voting by designing the districts such that democrats and other parties stand no chance or even go as far as plain fraud and preventing people to vote.

Banana republic comes to mind when you look at some of your states and you can claim there are pro's but I havn't seen them. You have no experience with representational government and none of those entities you mention have a fair distribution since the majority vote can be outweighed easily by a minority (see Bush - Gore elections) while others with possibly even better ideas get no chance.

All your argument is based on fear. You are so easy to manipulate with fear arguments by your own parties it has clouded your judgment.

[Malorn]

Meh.

[Figment]

Btw Malorn, please enlighten me what minorities are represented or worked with by the Republicans party.

You still don't get that whoever rules pretends to have the majority vote just that in your system a large minority suppresses the influence of opinions of other substantialy sized groups.

There is no such thing as a tyranny of 'the' majority in a democracy, because this majority changes constantly. Tyranny is when an elite decides for others and your vote is irrelevant.

ESPECIALLY when you can't really dynamically change its direction, then it just becomes a sluggish, machine incapable of flexibility or need to care for others but themselves. Stability becomes another word for stagnation and self-preservation.

[Malorn]

Meh.