Why K:D, Deaths, streaks and other stats are bad, and how PS2 can evolve the genre - Page 25

moosepoop · 2012-07-22, 08:41 PM

Originally Posted by Mythoclast

I don't mind if they aren't public but I wanna see as many of my stats as they can track.

you are right. if you can hide your death count but still keep score to yourself to see your performance, that would be a good idea also.

GhettoPrince · 2012-07-22, 08:41 PM

Some people care about stats, most people don't give a fuck, if your the kind of guy who unironically says "peep my stats, bro", then you can show off how much better you are at playing video games. If you don't give a fuck you can just ignore them. You aren't being punished, it's just a game , it's entertainment, it should not be a big deal for anyone.

moosepoop · 2012-07-22, 08:42 PM

Originally Posted by GhettoPrince

Some people care about stats, most people don't give a fuck, if your the kind of guy who unironically says "peep my stats, bro", then you can show off how much better you are at playing video games. If you don't give a fuck you can just ignore them. You aren't being punished, it's just a game , it's entertainment, it should not be a big deal for anyone.

its not just fun. k/d also has a social aspect.

Mythoclast · 2012-07-22, 08:44 PM

Originally Posted by moosepoop

you are right. if you can hide your death count but still keep score to yourself to see your performance, that would be a good idea also.

It would be very helpful. If I am messing around with new equipment it would be nice to track changes in my various stats and see how big of a difference changing stuff around makes.

DownloadFailed · 2012-07-22, 08:44 PM

Originally Posted by Blackwolf

I thought that might be the case, but tbh the K/D never stopped me from doing what was best for squad/team/empire. I revived people in mid firefight, dropped gens, killed spawns, and generally followed outfit orders without hesitation. I paid attention to it of course, but it helped me determine how well my head was in the game and how well I did before I signed out.

If I understand correctly, K/D wasn't introduced to PS1 until some time after its release. Now, you, being a PS1 vet, learned through experience the importance of teamwork, playing the objective, and playing support roles before KDR came into the game. No doubt, if KDR is added in as a focused stat in PS2, many PS1 vets won't care about the stat, much like you. However, as has been stated previously in the thread, the PS2 devs are looking to draw in a larger FPS crowd, including CoD players and players of games that are highly KDR focused. These players will be focusing on the KDR as their primary source of player-skill-measurement. This is something that we don't want. The problem isn't with you or with previous PS1 players or with people that play in teams because they understand the importance of teamwork. The problem is with the inevitable influx of new players that will want this stat and will use it as their proverbial Bible. This can be avoided by not directly displaying death on a player's in-game score or on a player's statistics page on the PS2 website. By taking focus away from KDR that encourages selfish play and putting it on a measurement like score, something that measures all positive actions in-game, players will be measured by their true worth and not by how many people they've wasted.

sameer · 2012-07-22, 08:45 PM

When the game gets boring, stats keep me going. This game seems like it will get boring quick, so I hope to keep going with stats.

Plunkies · 2012-07-22, 08:47 PM

Originally Posted by GhettoPrince

Some people care about stats, most people don't give a fuck, if your the kind of guy who unironically says "peep my stats, bro", then you can show off how much better you are at playing video games. If you don't give a fuck you can just ignore them. You aren't being punished, it's just a game , it's entertainment, it should not be a big deal for anyone.

You completely miss the point. This issue isn't caring about stats and not caring about stats. The issue is stats influencing a type of behavior that otherwise would not exist if those stats were not there.

Stats GREATLY influence play style whether you like it or not. In Tribes, the objective is to capture the flag. What do people do in Tribes? They fight over the god damn generator. Why? Because you get more points for it. The STATS tell them that fighting over the generator is the best thing to do so they do it, even if they aren't consciously aware that they're being influenced.

**Malorn** · 2012-07-22, 08:50 PM

Originally Posted by Plunkies

You completely miss the point. This issue isn't caring about stats and not caring about stats. The issue is stats influencing a type of behavior that otherwise would not exist if those stats were not there.

Stats GREATLY influence play style whether you like it or not. In Tribes, the objective is to capture the flag. What do people do in Tribes? They fight over the god damn generator. Why? Because you get more points for it. The STATS tell them that fighting over the generator is the best thing to do so they do it, even if they aren't consciously aware that they're being influenced.

Right on the money.

Mythoclast · 2012-07-22, 08:50 PM

Originally Posted by Plunkies

You completely miss the point. This issue isn't caring about stats and not caring about stats. The issue is stats influencing a type of behavior that otherwise would not exist if those stats were not there.

Stats GREATLY influence play style whether you like it or not. In Tribes, the objective is to capture the flag. What do people do in Tribes? They fight over the god damn generator. Why? Because you get more points for it. The STATS tell them that fighting over the generator is the best thing to do so they do it, even if they aren't consciously aware that they're being influenced.

Exactly. The emphasis can be spread evenly among stats like healing done rather than just bolding and italicizing KDR and saying "LOOK HERE KDR". That doesn't mean removing deaths from the stat page.

Blackwolf · 2012-07-22, 08:51 PM

Originally Posted by DownloadFailed

If I understand correctly, K/D wasn't introduced to PS1 until some time after its release.

What are you a effing mind reader? Can you learn all that by your silly little self based on text on a screen?

Don't put words in my mouth. It really is annoying.

K/D is something you learned to manage on your own. Whether you decide to be a killwhore or figure out how to balance it in your own time is up to you. I'm against removing the stat because I think it promotes self improvement. Being part of an outfit makes you count yourself as a valued asset more then numbers on the lower left of your screen.

But you want to remove those numbers in some weak attempt at promoting an optional course of action in a game. Without considering the desires of others.

Plunkies · 2012-07-22, 08:59 PM

Originally Posted by Mythoclast

Exactly. The emphasis can be spread evenly among stats like healing done rather than just bolding and italicizing KDR and saying "LOOK HERE KDR". That doesn't mean removing deaths from the stat page.

The problem with deaths is that they are bad while simultaneously unimportant. Placing them on a stat page permanently results in a negative reinforcement for something that is not important enough to warrant that negative reinforcement in a team game like this. It encourages play geared toward avoiding deaths while the game itself is not designed for that playstyle and does not benefit from it. A non-deathmatch, team-based game should not have deaths shown. Ever. You can not show deaths and while also encouraging unselfish, TEAM play.

Drakkonan · 2012-07-22, 09:00 PM

Are the death stat apologists even reading the thread?

To be honest, I think the game designers just don't care. How many changes have we seen to the game so far based on debates within the community? The removal of the kill-cam, but what else?

I hate playing betas because I like everything to be finished and fresh at the same time, but I might have to apply for this one because it's looking like the only avenue to get game design issues fixed (stats, seat-swapping etc...) will be /bugreport.

Mythoclast · 2012-07-22, 09:04 PM

Originally Posted by Plunkies

The problem with deaths is that they are bad while simultaneously unimportant. Placing them on a stat page permanently results in a negative reinforcement for something that is not important enough to warrant that negative reinforcement in a team game like this. It encourages play geared toward avoiding deaths while the game itself is not designed for that playstyle and does not benefit from it. A non-deathmatch, team-based game should not have deaths shown. Ever. You can not show deaths and while also encouraging unselfish, TEAM play.

By that logic not showing deaths would make players completely not recognize the importance of being cautious when the situation calls for it. Avoiding death is not more important than taking objectives but it IS important. People won't jump in front of bombs if you remove the death stat and they won't run from flies if you leave it in.

Also, whether or not their is a death stat there will be kill whores. Anyone dumb enough to not realize that they need to work as a team and sometimes that means dying and not getting kills is not going to care if you remove the death stat.

vVRedOctoberVv · 2012-07-22, 09:09 PM

Shock harnesses, goddammit! I've said it before, and I'll say it again! We need SHOCK HARNESSES FOR ALL SHOOTERS!!!!111

Every bang should be followed by a zap, somewhere in the world

TAA · 2012-07-22, 09:12 PM

If you provide limited stats people will:

Complain and in many cases not get the satisfaction they want from the game.
Still do whatever they can to maximize their stats by playing unnaturally.

Brink had no tracked kdr. There were endless complaints from players to have it put in. I thought it was a good idea at the time, but no longer. I still saw way too many people ignore the objective and go after kills instead of doing their job. Not having those stats turns off players who crave them in games.

I am now of the opposite mindset. I say give information overload to the players. Let them obsess all they want over their stats - it keeps them obsessed about the product.

The more stats the better IMO. I want to know what my hit percentage is with each weapon, what my headshot percentage is with each weapon, kills, deaths, points, points per minute, objectives captured/defended, vehicles killed, people healed, people transported, repairs, squad spawns, everything.

I want to see how those values change over time so I also want graphs for everything. I want to use those graphs to fine tune my performance with individual weapons and attachments.

I also want death heat maps for every area in the game showing both where I die most often and where most people tend to die in general. I want to be able to filter those heat maps for day/night conditions. I want to see stats breaking down what weapons or vehicles kill me most often, and I want to be able to filter each weapon that kills me on my heat maps too.

Hell I even want to see stats showing me where I am most likely to be hit on my model to tell me if I have a bias to getting shot from the left or the right side.

Give me everything. The more information the better.