Planetside 2 is a major disappointment - Page 6

**Malorn** · 2012-10-17, 11:39 AM

Originally Posted by Mox

The problem is atm that ps2 is nothing really special. It is just another online shooter.
Ps1 on the other hand was really special at its time. So let us think about what were the unique selling propositions of ps1. I would say the following three major points:

1) the massive scale of battles
2) the persistence of the world
3) mmo style character development

Now we have to ask what is wrong with ps2 regarding these aspects scince we agree that these Aspects have still a potential to make ps2 successfull game.

This is very close to what I would say are the big 3 draws to both PS1 and PS2. I would agree with the first two points, but I would change the 3rd to be "Character Customization" - its nothing new to gaming now but it was for shooters back then. The ability to change your gear, change your specializations (certs), and your additional perks (implants) was quite big.

I believe PS2 captured these three as well.

The massive battles are there. The battle flow needs tuning and sorting out (something I've been thinking about tons lately). Its by no means a finished product, but that's something we all can help improve by giving constructive criticism.

The persistent world is there. There's a lot more to the persistent world than continent locking. It also means a persistent community. Most shooters don't have that except for some regulars who might play on a particular server. It also means more meaningful victory since there isn't a reset button every fifteen minutes undoing anything and everything you've done. It means more variety in the battle landscape. It means more freedom to go and do what you want. It is a giant playground where you can control ownership. There's a bigger picture game that is now possible that no other game has. There's a lot to build on here but it requires a good foundation first and it isn't what makes PlanetSide fun for the typical gamer. It is something that gives it longevity though, but I would consider it a lower priority than consistently creating good fights.

Massive + Persistent also means you can do whatever you want, any time, with however many friends you want. Doing stuff with friends in other games is a pain. Trying to get all your buddies onto the same team in a BF3 match is a pain, only to have one get auto-balanced, and you can only have a few people at a time. The game is a lot more social and that's a powerful aspect of PS2 that I believe is often neglected by fans.

For PS2 they correctly captured the Customization aspect, but took some different approaches with it to help make it more intuitive and modern to games. That decision is something some vets are upset about by changing gear to classes. I think it was the correct decision seeing as the PS1 cert system didn't scale and the idea of specialization evaporated. Also in modern games being able to change out your playstyle, drastically instantly is a good thing to keep players interested in the game. PS1 used to take the better part of a week to re-cert your character into a different role. Stuff like that doesn't pass the smell test in modern games. The cert gain over time progression but it plays nicely into the customization. It also allows player specialization and allows players to do any role, drive any vehicle, but be better and have more options in the ones they choose.

1) in the last months of beta there were just a few battles that can be called massive or epic. Most time they were medium sized skirmish battle or no battles at all (ghost captures). The problem is that the pkayers are still spread over the whole continent. Therefore ps2 need the proper mechanics to lead the players to the epic battles.

I agree with this and I think it's one of the most important issues to tackle, way more important than cross continent warfare and the bigger global game. People will come to PS2 for the massive, not the metagame. If they don't get that soon after logging in they won't be hooked. PS2 dies. It can live without a deep metagame for a while. It can't live without consistent massive fights. Need some better funneling, better indicators on where the fight is, more smooth battles between outposts, and instant action that works. Matt's post last night covered 3 of those. They get it.

2) The persistence of the world of ps2 is a fact. Nevertheless persistence is meaningless atm since there are no metagame elements in the game atm. Futhermore intercontinental warefare is important to make the persistence meaningfull.

I disagree with this statement. Persistence as illustrated above has a lot more value than simply the intercontinental game. I think the game can live without that in the short term. Longer term it needs to be there, absolutely agree, and Matt outlined a plan to get there in his post last night. He clearly stated that the inter-continental epic conquest is where they want to take the game. One thing they will have in the short term is continental lock benefits. That's a big step closer to the rich metagame we all want. I think it's important to note that in order for the meta game to be meaningful the on-continent fighting needs to be solid, flow better, and consistently create big fights. Without that nobody will play the game long enough to see the rich metagame.

3) regarding charakter development ps2 already do a.good job imo.

Yeah it's doing a good job there. Lots of customization. Would be nice with more/better implant options and working loadouts, but there's a lot of good customization in there.

I don't think the game is all that far off the mark currently and its definitely going in the right direction. What it needs is vets and hardcore fans to help nail the core of the game.

What doesn't help is making a stink about things that dont' matter all that much in the grand scheme of things, or about things that were removed for a good reason.

Personally I'd like more feedback on the flow mechanics of the game. I dont' see that all that much from any forums. Usually it's in the form of complaining and I have to decipher the meaning into the actual problem.

yonman · 2012-10-17, 12:04 PM

There's one more thing that should be considered about the PS1-PS2 gap (part of what Malorn dubbed "Player customization".

PS1 allowed a player to immediately gain access to anything he wanted. Want HA at BR6? no problem. You gave up everything else in the game but you had your Lasher/Hammer/Minigun ready to blast away.
Mossie? No problem. Advanced medic? go ahead.

You could, reasonably, get anything you wanted and be anything you wanted at the click of a few certs. Granted you'd be specialized at low BRs but tbh, that's the point I enjoyed PS1 the most.

In PS2 you grind for anything which isn't the default load out. tbh2 - I'm fine with it as it is. I personally think the default weapons for the classes I play are more than enough. Variety would be cool but I was never one to dash after the unlocks in any game.

However, I can hear my outfit mates groaning on TS - "Ye guhds, 12K to get a new gun for the liberator?!". I know that being a support player it'll take me around a month to make that much. Others are not as inept as I am at the shooty-shoot ... but still. I think PS1 vets are unused to grinding. Most of us have not had to grind since we got our BR20CR5 toons 8 years ago. That's a hard thing to let go of.

Baneblade · 2012-10-17, 12:20 PM

PS1 didn't have a steep learning curve... hell it wasn't difficult to figure out at all if you paid any attention. Gold ammo was the biggest issue I've seen new players have and that item was unnecessary entirely.

**Malorn** · 2012-10-17, 12:25 PM

Originally Posted by Baneblade

PS1 didn't have a steep learning curve... hell it wasn't difficult to figure out at all if you paid any attention. Gold ammo was the biggest issue I've seen new players have and that item was unnecessary entirely.

Says one who survived the curve. Those that didnt arent here to tell us about it.

**Malorn** · 2012-10-17, 12:45 PM

Originally Posted by yonman

There's one more thing that should be considered about the PS1-PS2 gap (part of what Malorn dubbed "Player customization".

PS1 allowed a player to immediately gain access to anything he wanted. Want HA at BR6? no problem. You gave up everything else in the game but you had your Lasher/Hammer/Minigun ready to blast away.
Mossie? No problem. Advanced medic? go ahead.

You could, reasonably, get anything you wanted and be anything you wanted at the click of a few certs. Granted you'd be specialized at low BRs but tbh, that's the point I enjoyed PS1 the most.

In PS2 you grind for anything which isn't the default load out. tbh2 - I'm fine with it as it is. I personally think the default weapons for the classes I play are more than enough. Variety would be cool but I was never one to dash after the unlocks in any game.

However, I can hear my outfit mates groaning on TS - "Ye guhds, 12K to get a new gun for the liberator?!". I know that being a support player it'll take me around a month to make that much. Others are not as inept as I am at the shooty-shoot ... but still. I think PS1 vets are unused to grinding. Most of us have not had to grind since we got our BR20CR5 toons 8 years ago. That's a hard thing to let go of.

In PS2 you can do any role and drive any vehicle you want at any rank/level. Its even more open than PS1 was in that regard. The cert time is going to be increased in the future, and guns are moving to certs for unlocks to help with the grindiness. Smed also said the cert rate is going to increase on the order of ~4x.

PoisonTaco · 2012-10-17, 12:55 PM

PS2 is the most fun I've had in a shooter since Battlefield 2142. I'd hardly call it a disappointment.

Fun game? Hell yeah.
Good game? Yes.
Great game? Getting there.

It's by no means perfect but there's still some work to do. Some folks are going to like it and others are not. If you prefer Planetside 1 over Planetside 2 well it's not like PS1 is going anywhere. Smed has tweeted that PS1 will be going free and they aren't shutting down the server. So if that's what you like playing more then all the power to you.

I think a lot of folks who are disappointed were expecting way too much.

maradine · 2012-10-17, 12:59 PM

I don't think they were expecting too much; more they were expecting PS1's hot younger sister.

Bags · 2012-10-17, 01:25 PM

Those saying it needs to be "mainstream" with things like classes to be good... I dunno.

I got a lot of my friends pumped for the game who never played PS1. Now none of us play the beta any more. Most of them seem to agree that most of PS1 sounds a lot more fun than PS2, and have a lot of the same gripes myself and other ps1 vets have

Anecdotal, yeah...

Redshift · 2012-10-17, 01:52 PM

It's too hard to find a decent fight, there's no real battles, it's easier to find fun in TF2 instead, size doesn't matter when you can't find shit to shoot.

so yea bit disappointed atm

FatherJack · 2012-10-17, 02:06 PM

Originally Posted by Figment

You make it sound as a bad thing.

Yes being an Anti-Vehicle/sniper/medic/engineer/hacker was not a good thing. In PS2 they can find out exactly who is pulling what in their class choices and balance things accordingly.

I will agree that some of the bases still need work. I want to avoid situations like nade spam near doors like we see in PS1 though.

One person can indeed make a difference still, I was with one of my squad mates last night, we were defending a base on Esamir and managed to take out a sunderer that was in the base. That effectively ended the assault and allowed vehicles to get out and allowed us to push out.

Lets not forget that the player numbers went way down after the free month at release and steadily bled customers until you see the numbers today. PS1 was not a huge success and as time went on it got more and more unfriendly to new players. When I dropped in every now and then, even though I had played the game quite a bit before it was difficult to find out about the new mechanics. Just opening the map made things look like a jumbled mess.

When I got the free month before PS2's beta started I didnt see any of the great fights that I remembered. I just saw players flying in mossies, hopping between bases. I remember playing at launch each person had a specific role to play. We needed medics, infils and maxes to fill up our gals. I didnt see any of as everyone could do everything themselves.

All the mechanics that some PS1 vets think were great, failed to attract new players over the years. Its something to keep in mind while some vets slate the devs choice to not creating a copy of PS1.

Redshift · 2012-10-17, 02:31 PM

Originally Posted by FatherJack

When I got the free month before PS2's beta started I didnt see any of the great fights that I remembered. I just saw players flying in mossies, hopping between bases. I remember playing at launch each person had a specific role to play. We needed medics, infils and maxes to fill up our gals. I didnt see any of as everyone could do everything themselves.

Without trying to sound like a broken record that was BR 40 that broke the game design and made that possible, and it's exactly the way it works in PS2, you can be anything you want whenever you want. The old BR 20-25 was the sweet spot, you had just enough certs to do one thing well.

The class system personally just stops me getting invested in a character, it's kinda stripping the MMO feeling out of the mmofps

Baneblade · 2012-10-17, 02:36 PM

Originally Posted by Malorn

Says one who survived the curve. Those that didnt arent here to tell us about it.

Well, pardon if I want some examples of actual players who quit PS1 because it was too hard before I believe it.

OnexBigxHebrew · 2012-10-17, 02:36 PM

Originally Posted by bodypopper

i thought lego and action man kicked serious ass when i was younger too.

fact is ps1 was a graphically crappy game with some serious depth,ps2 is like your average slut.. all show and no knickers.

i hope things improve.

Are you somehow implying that PS2 is visually impressive?

No. It's boring and ugly, lol.

And for the record, PS1 wasn't great either. It was just unique.

Let's not, however, pretend that what makes PS2 bad is that its too generic. This game just doesn't have any incentives, period. There's no actual driving force in this game, and it desperately needs it. Just tried it again for the first time in a while. Still boring, still no real rewards or incentives, still no meat. PS2 = MMO without questing. Feel how you want about it, but people would shit balls if they woke up one day and wow had no quests. And as for shooters, the natural human competitive instinct takes over in arena games, so non-arena shoters require more innovation outside of mechanics and polish to be remotely interesting. If generic means ditching pretending to be an MMOFPS, then so be it. This game does not. It just does everything, and poorly.

The problem here is that, if you disect it, PS2 is sub-par as a shooter, sub-par as an mmo, and has sub-par design, all tied together with a sub-par metagame. PS2 is not more than the sum of it's parts. It's just an average of them.

I wanted to love it so bad. It just isn't good enough, and I don't think it has enough instant gratification to lure the F2P audience, and doesn't have enough quality gameplay for a hardcore playerbase. My only hope is that a better developer than SOE with better art directors and game designers takes a cue from this game as what it is - a proof of concept for an MMOFPS.

Not to mention, today's PC gamer is over 25 years old, and typically won't have the time or will to sacrifice to 'organizing' and playing nuthug with online clan leaders that only a 14 year looks up to.

FatherJack · 2012-10-17, 03:14 PM

Originally Posted by Redshift

Without trying to sound like a broken record that was BR 40 that broke the game design and made that possible, and it's exactly the way it works in PS2, you can be anything you want whenever you want. The old BR 20-25 was the sweet spot, you had just enough certs to do one thing well.

The class system personally just stops me getting invested in a character, it's kinda stripping the MMO feeling out of the mmofps

Yes and thats the fundamental problem with BR's for progression. When you hit 20 and everyone else is 20 they want the cap higher. This is what happened in PS1, everyone wants to feel they have progressed a bit and this is what forced the devs to keep upping the BR cap.
Right now almost 100% of my certs have gone into HA and there are many more to go that I want, they can keep on adding to that class with various boondongles but still keep things relatively balanced.
In PS1 the increasing BR meant that everyone is everything, there may be a sweet spot in between but lets not kid ourselves that PS1's system was good. Its very design meant the writing was on the wall from the start regarding multi skilled characters.

maradine · 2012-10-17, 03:15 PM

Originally Posted by OnexBigxHebrew

Felt like I needed closure with the community as I'm giving up on PS2, and this was as good a thread as any. lol.

That was a pretty quick walk through the stages of grief.