Warez: A discussion

Jaged · 2004-03-12, 01:22 AM

First of all, I would like to state that I am aware that warez = teh ban. This thread is not asking for warez or offering it. It is simply discussing it and its moral issues.

What is your opinion on warez? Personally, I feel that it is a new aspect of the economy that must be considered. To try to wipe it out is ignorant, it is here to stay. I think that companies should accept the fact that the price of their goods has just droped. It is something that has happened a lot in the past. When VCRs came out, the TV industry was up in arms for the same reasons. People could record their shows, give them to friends, and ultimately not be forced to watch as much TV on the networks terms. Now, VCRs are considered common place and no one really complains about then. I think that music and even software piracy will someday meet a similar fate.

/Me straps on flame retardant suit.

Dharkbayne · 2004-03-12, 01:40 AM

There wouldn't be so much warezing if they didn't charge 20-50 dollars a game. It costs them, what, less than 5 cents to make a disk? I understand that it costs them alot to make a game, but even if they sold then for 10-15 dollars each, they'd make a profit. Also, you shouldn't have to actually BUY MMO games, I mean, you pay them 10-15 dollars a month after that, it makes me MAD. Stupid TSO not letting my subscribe. Garhgl;akejt.

Cyanide · 2004-03-12, 01:50 AM

I agree that trying to stop warez and piracy is futile. I think the biggest problem is that the RIAA will sue 14 year old kids for sharing a few songs, but the guy with a $5000 automated CD burner sitting in his closet churning out 200 copies of the latest Pop CD per hour, can SELL his stuff on the street right in front of a cop and nobody bitches about that. That goes for movies, games, and every other piece of software. They seem to be more concerned with the people sharing the stuff for free than the million dollar piracy rings that sell illegal copies of expensive software like PhotoShop for $90.

I don't see a problem with sharing software as long as it's for evaluative purposes or there's no way you could ever actually afford the stuff. What I mean is, no kid can afford a real copy of a $1000 peice of software, so the company isn't really losing anything because the kid has a copy, since there's no way he could ever pay for it and he didn't really take anything from anybody to get it.

Now if you can afford the software and you've decided that you like it, then you should go buy it in order to support the company that made it. If the software is crap and you hate it, then don't buy it, because companies who make crappy stuff should not be supported. I think PC game makers in particular are against piracy because it allows people to cut through the hype and actually try out the game before they pay for it. It means that if the game is bug ridden and/or is a general piece of junk, maybe the consumer won't buy it, even though you put millions of dollars into advertising. Companies don't like that.

Derfud · 2004-03-12, 01:54 AM

$20-15 per game? I'd like to know where you shop. I usually end up paying $65-$70 (USD) or $90 (CDN) when I buy a new game. Only a few years ago it was at least $30 cheaper to buy stuff. How can the publishers expect any revenue if they are charging $90 for a game, when you could just as, or more easily get it for free? It's time someone gave them a wake-up call. Creating counter-piracy measures only makes the pirates more determined, and alas, they always find a way around. So why not do what the responsible company should do and lower the price of the products? It's not like they will be losing any money over $20 less per copy sold. Thats pocket change to them. To me, $20 is the price of my pants.

Dharkbayne · 2004-03-12, 01:58 AM

I said 20-50, which is insanely high for something you don't even know if you will like it.

MilitantB0B · 2004-03-12, 02:05 AM

Originally Posted by Dharkbayne

I said 20-50, which is insanely high for something you don't even know if you will like it.

But people buy it, and even with warez, most people that want to play a game will buy it.

The fact is that any company that has any finnancial sense at all will charge however much they can get away with. Which means, as long as everyone still buys games at $50, they will always sell em at $50 dollars, regardless of cost, and that is true the world round.

I do agree about MMOGs though, if I have to pay every month, I ought to not have to pay up front, or at least pay a very low amount, like 10 bucks or something, not 20.

Honestly, I think a great idea would be a MMOG set in either the future or present (I'm thinking a crime MMORPG...) that does not cost a monthly fee, but instead runs off of ads, I'm not talking about pop-ups here, just ads like we see in real life, which wouldn't look out of place if the game was set in a large city in future or present... But that is just my idea...

Jaged · 2004-03-12, 02:15 AM

Lol, virtual billboards, private message spam, and TV ads at the startup. I would rather pay the monthly...

UncleDynamite · 2004-03-12, 02:20 AM

Originally Posted by Derfud

It's not like they will be losing any money over $20 less per copy sold. Thats pocket change to them. To me, $20 is the price of my pants.

Well, when you're losing $20 per copy, and seeing that thousands of copies are sold for each game, that amounts to quite a bit. For example, if a game sells a conservative 100,000 copies, that's 100,000 x 20 = $2 million dollars in lost revenue. Now, I agree that games are pretty expensive, but that's also because it's getting more expensive to produce a game in the first place. Today's games require a whole host of professionals, from programmers to 3D artists. Many games also purchase the graphic engines from other products, which can get quite pricey indeed. In other words, the price on the box is there for a reason: to pay for making the game, and to make a profit so the company can stick around to make another. Warez undermines that system, making it more difficult for companies to design new products. This is not to say that the companies should do their best to reduce the cost of their goods: they should, but that's more difficult than it sounds.

Firefly · 2004-03-12, 02:30 AM

Anyone who pays for things with Canadian money deserves everything they get, along with the thirty percent tax.

Derfud · 2004-03-12, 03:00 AM

14.5% actually.

Originally Posted by UncleDynamite

Well, when you're losing $20 per copy, and seeing that thousands of copies are sold for each game, that amounts to quite a bit. For example, if a game sells a conservative 100,000 copies, that's 100,000 x 20 = $2 million dollars in lost revenue.

$2 million gained because games only used to cost $60 opposed to the now, $80. I dont think the gaming market has had that tight competition. If at all, not enough to merit a $20 increase in software. I recall purchasing C&C Renegade at release for a total of $60 14% tax included. (It was only 14% back then). It seems like the price of everything is going up, but nobody is getting payed any more than they used to. Makes you wonder, where all the money is going to?

Phaelon · 2004-03-12, 09:04 AM

Warez has been around since the early 90's, i remember downloading wolfenstein on the warez newsgroups back in the early 90s.

What the RIAA and other orginizations need to do, is to follow the Adult Entertainment industry, to learn from them that Stopping the end person in the chain will do nothing. What they need to do is offer exciting new ways to transfer that data, accept new mediums and try new things. Instead of being stuck in thier ways and fighting for this or that, they need to expand thier enterprises and approach the situation differently. If you remember back in the mid 90s, The Adult entertainment industry went toe to toe with file sharers and newsgroups for hosting thier content out there and with illegal piraters. The Adult industry lost. But they learned not to burn the bridge of the end user.

The money thing is out of control, and is another topic in and of itself. You want to sell your game for 50 dollars with a manual and a cd and that is it? I am going to think twice about buying it. Now if you sell your game for 60 dollars, with a huge manual, a cool map, maybe a mouse pad, a figure I can put on my desk now we are talking. I feel like I am getting something good out of this deal.

Madcow · 2004-03-12, 09:29 AM

Software manufacturers need to embrace downloading as not only accepted but encouraged, but they need to do it on their own. It might cost 5 cents to make a disk, but once you take into account all of the packaging/creation of the artwork/booklets etc. then it obviously gets higher. Why don't more companies encourage paying them a lesser fee than the store cost to do direct downloads? They can avoid paying the shipping costs, packaging costs, the cut that stores are going to take, everything else. I'm still dumbfounded that Sony didn't do that with Planetside and the expansion.

As for the idea that it's okay to download something if you would never have had the money to purchase it, that's half-assed validation. If you're downloading it and using it you'd never have to scrounge up the money to pay for it. The idea that it's not hurting the company because the person (supposedly) would never have bought it anyway is such twisted logic it hurts my little head.

_-Gunslinger-_ · 2004-03-12, 09:43 AM

On the topic of games getting expensive. We really dont know how much it costs to produce a game. However I think that its obviouse that gaming companies are making a massive profit from them. What needs to change is that they make it worth whatever they are charging, be that by price cuts or new stuff added, or both. For instance as Phaelon pointed out we have a fealing of being cheated when I purchase that game and all that comes is a CD case with a small manual in the CD case, cant forget the ad that almost always comes with aswell.

However it seems assanine to simply include more, especially when what you include could be useless. For instance if every game I bought came with a mousepad I would just have a vast colleciton of mousepads, but if that game came with a small notepad that had a vague background to it then I might be more satisfied.

Now my favorite idea I have seen coming from the gaming industry would be steam2. You can pay a monthly fee for supirior DL service and access to ALL thier valve related content. Meaning that you get Counterstrike, Day of Defeat, Team Fortress 2, and any other content that others will have to buy from the store. Now span that COMPANY wide. So if, say, sierra released some random other game that wasnt valve related you could download that aswell, then put them in ISO format so that they can be extracted onto a CD and stored on your HD. In essence I am saying that the smartest move would be for the game companies to come up with a way to profit from the warez.

Fear not about MMO's I think that they will eventually be a downloadable format that you simply pay a monthly fee for at the beginning. EG. you download Planetside and simply pay the 12.95 for your first month instead of getting it free.

_-Gunslinger-_ · 2004-03-12, 09:47 AM

Originally Posted by Madcow

Software manufacturers need to embrace downloading as not only accepted but encouraged, but they need to do it on their own. It might cost 5 cents to make a disk, but once you take into account all of the packaging/creation of the artwork/booklets etc. then it obviously gets higher. Why don't more companies encourage paying them a lesser fee than the store cost to do direct downloads? They can avoid paying the shipping costs, packaging costs, the cut that stores are going to take, everything else. I'm still dumbfounded that Sony didn't do that with Planetside and the expansion.

As for the idea that it's okay to download something if you would never have had the money to purchase it, that's half-assed validation. If you're downloading it and using it you'd never have to scrounge up the money to pay for it. The idea that it's not hurting the company because the person (supposedly) would never have bought it anyway is such twisted logic it hurts my little head.

The logic is simple and very sound. The company isnt being cheated because they woudnt of gotten the money anyhow. Like I photoshop 7 and use it about once every two weeks. Now if I were to have been forced to purchase it instead of downloading it then I would have just not gotten it. So the company gets nothing in BOTH scenarios.

Pilgrim · 2004-03-12, 10:39 AM

Funny thing is

Before piracy became so prevelant games cost 30-45$

after piracy is the way that the 1337 kiddies get their software then the price goes to 50-60$

Yet no one thinks that maybe... just maybe the piracy is driving up prices?

Also remember that computers in the last 5 years have jumped ALOT in ability. To take advantage of the new features (and any game that wants to sell will take advantage of as many as possible) game developers have to spend more time and effort and therefore money.

As a reality check a game without a licensed engine costs on average 3-4 million to produce. that's a non-mmo. An MMO will cost between 3-6 million.

Now take a company that puts out 5 titles of those 2 may sell over 100,000 so that $55 or so per broken up

$55 -%40 (standard retail markup)
$33 - distribution costs
$28 - packaging, =$5 per unit (including paying artists, printing and such)
$23

Now let's just say they get to keep that $23 buck (and don't forget 1/4 will go to the government in taxes) that's 2.3 mil. less then the development cost if a game only sells 100k coppies.

Now of those 5 titles

1 will be awesome and sell 400,000
2 will be good and sell 150,000
2 will be OK and sell 100,000
and 1 will suck ass and sell 25,000

While this model makes the bussiness still profitable the margins a razor thin (look at what happened to Black Isle if you don't believe me because they made a games that were primarily single player they took a bath because of piracy and are now out of bussiness)

Why do you think soooo freaking many people are making MMO's now it forces people to buy the Software and at least offset the development costs. The monthly barely covers the costs of servers and support while still trying to maintain a (GASP) profit margain! Those greedy bastards.

In base.

People who do Warez are mindless fucktards that are stealing from me and every other honest consumer. A person works their ass off on a product they deserve to profit from it.

/rant off

@ Gunslinger

You do not pay for the effort that went in to developing the software, therefore you do not deserve to use it! That is simple logic. It's the Moronic mindset of "I'm entitled to everything in the world I want!" You're not. You are entitled to anything in the world you can afford!

And photoshop wouldn't be so freaking expensive if people hadn't stolen it in the first place. So you're logic sucks