Invincible Shields: the game-breaking feature of the current BFRs. Constructive post.

Lise · 2004-10-27, 06:45 AM

Crossposted from Planetside.com

Alright, I think BFRs are a wicked sick idea. On several levels, heavy walking assault vehicles make so much sense that it's a wonder they weren't included with the initial release. Their armament seems fairly right too - going up against a heavy assault vehicle, any other single unit in the game should expect to lose. BFRs alone do not ruin Planetside - what is currently hurting the game to a great extent is the implementation of the BFR's defenses.

As Sam stated in a recent post (http://psforums.station.sony.com/ps/...354328#M354328), BFRs have a shield of 2700 HP and an armor rating from 3000HP to 5000HP. This is fairly in line with other vehicles - until, that is, you factor in the recharge rate of the BFR shield. That recharge rate is something on the order of 200 or more hit points per second - it's enough to render soldier-borne AV useless, even in fair quantities, and Sam said himself (http://psforums.station.sony.com/ps/...356082#M356082) that it takes two clips (presumably of 100% accuracy) of dual AV BFR weaponry - the strongest AV weaponry in the game, mind - to wear down a BFR's shields. This means that, essentially, instead of having a few thousand points of shield armor, the BFRs are possessed of thousands of points of HP from their shields... and depending on the situation and how well they can dodge fire or get a break from fire, they have tens of thousands, or even HUNDREDS of thousands of HP, with a possibility of infinite HP. Not only that, but this is on a generally one-man vehicle - whereas two people are needed to field a tank, those same two people can purchase a BFR each and field triple, if not more, the firepower of the tank while possessing vastly greater survivability. These shields render any other attack vehicle completely obsolete.

Kill the shield generator, you say. In a 1 BFR situation with about 4 or 5 infantry, I'd agree with you. That's not how it's working in practice, however. BFRs are appearing in groups of 5 or 6 or more - that's more than enough to effectively cover their fellows. Indeed, with multiple BFRs, you get weapons MIXING. A team of 6 BFRs, with an even mix of AV, AA, and AI weaponry, can lay waste to an entire infantry platoon (a full 30 man platoon) in two minutes flat. If they're all AI, it's a matter of seconds. And they are more than capable of covering one another from harm. Not only that, but this is with the baseline BFRs. Once the flight and gunner variants start predominating - and in a week or two here, they will - then either the gunner's 360 degree turret can cover the BFR, or the BFR can simply leap several hundred meters away from the source of its problems. Unless the pilots and gunners in any of the above situations are BLITHERING idiots, those shield gens are not going to fail.

Phalanx Turrets, you say, those bullets go right though the shield. The turrets do work well when they aren't under fire (I managed to smoke an Aphelion that was focused on other matters with a Phalanx tonight and seriously damaged several others), but as Sam has said, they're underarmored (http://psforums.station.sony.com/ps/...356082#M356082) and most BFR pilots are sharp enough to kill the turrets as soon as they assault a base. Cloakers with boomers, you say, a quad of boomers will waste a BFR. Well, a pretty decent number of BFR pilots have sharp eyes, and can spot a running cloaker. Not only that, but BFRs are usually accompanied by a few infantry, who will probably spot a cloaker doing his thing at the feet of a BFR that is immobile. (Especially since they usually go immoble during base/tower camps, you can expect some infantry.) Finally, ever since BFR Mayhem, a good number of BFR pilots are sharp enough to not stand still in a situation where there might be enemy cloakers about - your chances for finding a BFR with his pants down are slim.

Liberator bombspam, you say, if anything has enough raw ownage to bring down that shield it's ten bombs from a Lib. Well, at the higher altitudes BFRs have enough lead time to strafe-dodge bombs, and at the ranges where you could get right over one without missing, you're at short range for the BFRs and very operable range for everything else. Reaverspam, you say, pile enough Reavers on to ANY problem and it'll go away. Again, versus one BFR that might work, but in the BFR squads currently operating, the Reavers would be cut down or forced to withdraw after a single pass, especially if the BFR group has more than one dedicated AA BFR. Mosquitos, you say, it has a 12mm - well, it does and it might manage to disable the shield gen on one BFR, the AA BFRs of the group - heck, the AA MAXes or Skyguards on the ground - will eat a Mossie for lunch. Again, unless the pilots are either braindead or linkdead, air power does not present an appreciable threat to BFRs.

So. Infantry alone is basically ineffectual against BFR groups, they already waste ground attack vehicles with prejudice, Phalanx turrets can't hack it, cloakers can't effectively fight a moving BFR, and air power is very sketchy, if at all effective. That leaves one thing: massed firepower from everything. During the BFR Mayhem event, I lost only one BFR to enemy fire. This was an Aphelion I used during an assault on Xelas on Amerish. I decided to try and "lead" a BFR charge into the enemy line - a mistake, to be sure. I had something on the order of half a dozen Peregrines (all or nearly all armed AV, seemingly), several Lightnings, at least one Phalanx turret, and several (at least) Phoenix users all attacking me at once. Even then, my BFR held on for nearly a minute before exploding. That kind of firepower would have destroyed a Magrider in seconds. Heck, that mass of ownage would have smoked several Magriders in the same time frame as my BFR lasted. It took that much firepower to easily down a single BFR.

So concentrated BFR fire - with what help other units can provide - seems to be the only really effective way of downing a competent BFR pilot. Even then, two clips to down the shield probably assumes full accuracy, and unless you're point blank with one another that won't happen - especially if one or both are flight variants. Even BFRs have difficulty killing each other. And every bit of it is that blasted shield - or should I say, the blasted recharge of that shield. (You also have orbital strikes, but those are available once an hour to select individuals - not overly useful for something which respawns faster than that and is potentially available to everyone with less work than is required for CR5.)

As I stated previously, the overall numbers for the BFR's hit points seem fairly sensible. The shield recharge rate, however, gives a BFR far more shield HP that you would otherwise believe. The reasoning for this is, on some level, easy enough to understand - BFR's are *large* targets. They will, inevitably, draw the majority of fire from a base or an attacking force once they make their presense known. They must be capable of taking some heat if they're going to be at all effective. However, in a game that is based almost entirely on teamwork, a generally single-pilot vehicle has, in my humble opinion, no business possessing both greater firepower AND vastly superior survivability compared to a two-man battle tank - even when the certification of said tank is a requirement to use the single-pilot vehicle. Even with a 45 minute reuse timer, even with a *90* minute reuse timer, the vehicle will last long enough for the pilot to grab another one if/when his first one is destroyed. We have two options then: reduce the firepower they possess, or reduce their defensive capabilities. I've stated previously that I think the armament, as it is, is fine: there is a place in Planetside for heavy assault vehicles that can break the core of an enemy assault or defense, and mobile walking vehicles work beautifully for this. They should not be capable of taking to the face vastly more firepower than they can dish out, however. So, the shield generator needs to be changed rather drastically.

Lise · 2004-10-27, 06:47 AM

In my mind, this is what should be done: the raw value of the shield should stay the same, but the recharge rate needs to be reduced greatly, if not removed entirely. Essentially, the BFR shield needs to be made into a typical vehicle shield, which provides a set amount of protection and can be replenished at a station with Amp benefits (of course, being a sexy sexy BFR that comes from its own shed, a BFR should spawn in with its shield at full charge like it does now.) The actual armor should also be increased by 25-50%, to give it a bit more staying power without making it nigh-invincible. Component damage would only occur once the vehicle has taken 25% body damage. Yes, I do think component damage should stay; it's a nifty idea that makes sense to me. Whereas you can shoot and shoot a rugged, relatively simple armored Vanguard and it just WILL NOT BREAK, when you begin to put holes in something as horribly complex as a Battleframe, things will start breaking. You should have to punch through some of the armor before it starts falling apart, but it ensures that the one-man death machine may begin to have ammunition or weapons trouble - or it may lose its ability to effectively fall back. I also think the Phalanx turrets and 12mm and below ammo should pass through the shield - indeed, it'd be nifty for this ability to pass on to ALL vehicles. It'd go a long way toward making the Phalanx useful, especially in an anti-vehicluar role.

The big thing about changing the shield to a more or less conventional one is that it now allows infantry to really wear down a battleframe, especially since it's so easy to hit. AP ammo is, in my mind, the tool of the indoor fighter - it's what you use when you don't want to risk using a dodgable missile in close quarters hallway or room combat. It can damage vehicles, but really, it's meant for anti-MAX use. If something heavily armed and armored is rolling or stomping your way, then by God you should be throwing explosive things at it. Basically making the most offensively powerful unit in the game immune to infantry anti-vehicluar fire makes no sense to me. If a BFR leaves itself exposed to infantry AV fire, then it should suffer. That is what the shield change would do, and that is why the BFRs are currently not very fun to fight. And for those who say that the BFR "fad" is temporary: look at the BFRs now, look at what they can do. When everyone is capable of purchasing these along with other, base-assault capable weaponry, then any need for any other vehicle beyond the AMS becomes unnecessary. The BFRs so completely outclass all other kinds of units that fighting in anything else is detrimental to your ability to effectively fight. Since everyone can get one, there is no reason to use anything other than a Battleframe.

The change would also go a very long way towards integrating them into a true combined arms scenario: the Battleframes, especially the flight variants, are possessed of a mobility that no other ground unit can match, even if they are slow at "cruising speed". This change would leave them very vulnerable if they charged ahead too quickly without support. With proper air, infantry and TANK support, however (with this change the tanks would actually be somewhat more durable and far more rugged than the Battleframes, and could probably withdraw in good order better than the BFRs could should they need field repairs), they find their place. They can be the hammer of a battleforce, applying great firepower where it is most needed. I think most will agree that the idea of two combined forces of infantry, air, armor, and battleframes fighting it out for a base - with all combatants being vulnerable to one another - has a fun value and an epic scope that is hard to put into words. In otherwords, it'd be PLANETSIDE, the game I've come to know and love.

That is my observation and reccomendation, from a week of Battleframe Mayhem and a few days with them live. I hope the devs take my advice to heart - even if they don't implement my idea verbatim, the essential point is I hope made: for single-man vehicles, the BFRs are possessed of entirely too much defensive capability. This needs to be changed, in my opinion, for the health and enjoyment of the game.

(As a final aside... the shield generator need not disappear completely. It could recharge the shield, but at a rate less than that of a tank recharging in a Amp SOI. 2/3rds of that rate, perhaps. The Shield Generator would also allow BFRs in a friendly SOI to recharge their shields faster than most vehicles do, but still not at the rate they currently do - 150% of current recharge, perhaps. Indeed, the Shield Generator is just the beginning; that slot on the back could be made into an "Extension Pack" slot like the gun slots in the arms. You'd have the Shield Generator; the Movement Motivator, which would increase a BFR's speed and gun twisting by 10% (at the cost, of course, of any kind of shield recharing); the Jump Booster, usable for flight models only, that gives you additional jumping ability, but at the cost of no recharing shield and no extra speed - in this case, I think the Flight BFRs should be exactly as fast and maneuverable as their basic cousins; a Repair Module, which really slowly repairs damaged systems; and that's just off the top of my head. An Extension Pack slot would add a whole new layer of depth of customization to the BFRs that would add to their "fun quotient" quite a bit.

Regardless, a 2/3rds normal Amp recharge rate would be enough to allow BFR shields to regain a litte power in a lull in the fighting, and to almost fully recover during periods of inactivity such as hacks. I don't take issue with the idea of regenerating shields, I take issue with the fact in their current incarnation they give BFRs thousands of points of HP that they otherwise would not have.)

cryoslayer · 2004-10-27, 07:25 AM

Oh man thats awesome! tottaly agree today I played for 2 hours and got 76 kills and 3 deaths in my BFR... ya because I was in a flight and general varient where I just ran away when the shields went low, at many points i was surrounded by 3, 4, 5 or more enemy BFR's and I wasgetting owned but i just hit the auto run, recharged the shield on retreat and went back... a little unrealistic and not really fair to all the other cert charcters out there. now one thing we have to consider though is the Devs did just impliment core combat restrictions not allowing BFR's and anything else really big or anything with heavy weapons like the Med tank types to be in the caves or to spawn in the caves. SO That might be the answer you are looking for... continents are tank/BFR warfare with infantry in bases with support AMS units. And core is light tanks and light vehicals with Infantry warfare. But I do see the need ABSOLUTLY for decresing the shield recharge rate due to the very fact it even takes a group of BFR's a LOT of time to take out even 1 BFR, I think recharge should be cut to 50% of what it currently is or 2/3rds, some decrese I think is the resonable solution for sure. What does everyone else think? Cheers

NightWalker XI · 2004-10-27, 07:29 AM

This is a great thread and very good points made, I agree entirely abvout what you suggested about the shield nerf and a small armour buff, it makes sense and lots of it...another thing that needs to be fixed BFR wise however are the bridges in the game.

Today on my way to Laka on Searhus my BFR was crossing the bridge when the right leg just randomly went through it, it did not do me any damage being in that position but every time I tried to move it would do damage straight to the hit points of the vehicle, I could not do a single thing about it, even Kongstad tried ramming me out with his own BFR but it was impossible.

BFRs now seem to be crossing the river rather that using the bridge but what about places like Ceryshen? u need to take huge detours or risk being trapped.

Bridges need to be fixed on Auraxis to ensure a BFR can cross it without it getting stuck.

DaShiznit · 2004-10-27, 11:09 AM

I totally agree. Last night, I helped spearhead the NC offensive on Seahus. There were 20-30 NC infantry held up in a base. But we were surrounded by about 6-8 BFRs. Almost no infantry support for them. But we couldn't do a damn thing. Their shields were all but impenitrable. I had to leave, and I have no idea of how long we were under siege for. We used everything on them, we used jammers, we used Pheonixes, we used wall turrets, and NOTHING could bring them down. But NO! They're not overpowered! You just need tactics. Pshh.

Lartnev · 2004-10-27, 12:09 PM

If the BFR shield recharge were to be removed completely I think that no weaponry should pass through it. The point of the small arms penetrating the shield was that the shield was so awesome that it required something to penetrate it to bring it down. If it were reduced... well depends on the reduction tbh.

A simpler change could be to allow all Infantry weapons to pass through the shield, (decimators included?). Whether it should include AV MAXs would be a different matter.

SquishyWaffle · 2004-10-27, 12:21 PM

I agree with just lowering the recharge rate, as stated, even BFRs have a hard time taking other BFRs down.

DeepStrikeck · 2004-10-27, 03:09 PM

/sign

BlackHawk · 2004-10-27, 05:15 PM

/sign

EarlyDawn · 2004-10-27, 05:25 PM

My take on fixing BFRs:

Step One: Change Fundimental Shield Functionality

BFR shields only recharge when crouched.
Autorun mode totally disables shields.
Shields function in normal mode, but do not recharge
Flying is normal mode for shield purposes.
Each varient recharges at the exact same speed it would recharge crouched now.
This change creates a new tactical fascet. BFRs are still well protected against vehicles, but must play it smart and know when to retreat to recharge.
BFRs can attempt to simply activate autorun and flee to recharge, but lose their shields entirely until they stop. Thus, a planned retreat is wise.

Step Two: Generator Vulerabilities

Although vehicle ordinance cannot penetrate the shield, there is a chance that impact stress on the shield bubble may cause the generator to suffer minor malfunctions.
English Translation: Heavy Arms damage to the shield has a % chance to cause a damage effect to the shield generator.
These effects include reduced recharge rates (when crouched), a drop in maximum shield capacity, or vulnerability to an additional ammunition type (75mm / 35mm / ect rounds can penetrate until repaired.)
However, this effect will never actually damage the generator. Instead, they are closer to perminant (until repaired) EMP effects.
This helps prevent BFR vs BFR stalemates we see now. Although both BFRs can crouch and wail on each other with little to no effect, they are both subject to malfunctioning shield generators as they exchange blows, as well as exposing their generators to infantry.

Step Three: More Vulerable To Infantry

Theroretically, infantry are the best at whittling down a BFR. However, this is much different, practically speaking.
Bolt Driver hits should either have a greater probability of damaging a respective subsystem with a hit.
Alternatively, give Snipers an Anti-BFR round that does much less damage to infantry, but has a very high probability of subsystem damage. (Anti-Resonance Round?)
Make the shield generator more fragile, in general. No complicated rules here, just make , say, 2/3rds as durable as it is now.

Rbstr · 2004-10-27, 05:55 PM

i would allow it to recarge at half its rate standing up. And there must bea down time of 2 seconds between hits bofore it strts to recharge while standing up.

That is my $.02 on teh shield

i also like the anti subsystem round for the bolt driver

Apocolypse55 · 2004-10-27, 07:00 PM

/sign

OR get rid of BFRs all together.

Hamma · 2004-10-27, 07:30 PM

Quite a post

Nice work

GuamSliver · 2004-10-29, 12:29 AM

I absolutely agree with changing the recharge rate of BFR shields. But the problem goes deeper.

What I believe is at the core (pardon my punny) of most complaints is the economics of battling BFRs. The sheer amount of fire power that is needed to bring one down just bankrupts a platoon or smaller sized force. Resources(troops) that would otherwise be dedicated to other tasks are spent engaging the BFR.

There are those who would counter with "well then, get your own BFRs to deal with enemy BFRs". This seems logical, if you don't mind throwing away most the facits of PlanetSide that have made it a unique experience among first person shooters. The need for cooperative play that the developers have worked so hard to maintain is at once lost because players have already come to this conclusion.

In the past there has always been some give and take when new weapons and vehicles have been introduced. This was necessary to maintain the economic balance both within an empire and between empires. Vehicles and Tanks need engineer support, indoor assault force need medical support, Magriders are fast but Vanguards and Prowlers are tough, and the list goes on. No one certification can completely dominate the game. Enter the BFR.

Granted the devs have never got it perfect the first time, and have had to "tweak" things a bit, but unless some major overhauls are made to the BFR, we will see an unprecedented change in PS gameplay. Currently, outside those sliding doors is a world owned by single players in nigh indestructable armor. And unless your equipped the same or have a squad or two with you, you can forget about being effective to any degree.

Change is good, and BFRs are a great idea. It's the imbalance in economics of the game that they introduce that will eventually lead to a significant, and unplanned change in gameplay. The players see this and have already adjusted their style of play. Balance will return, but without developer intervention PlanetSide will be relegated to a mech game with the annoying feature of having to exit your vehicle every now and then to cap a base.

...Or maybe they can just put the CC on the exterior of the base and equip BFRs with a giant REK. Heck, give em BANKs and ACEs and a "glue gun" too!

Warborn · 2004-10-29, 01:30 AM

Originally Posted by Apocolypse55

/sign

OR get rid of BFRs all together.

Don't be ridiculous. There is literally no way they are going to do that. With all the time and effort spent on them, if Samhayne were to remove them, that'd probably be the end of his job at SOE. Making what must have been months of work amount to literally nothing but a few days of something different would get anyone responsible for such a stupid decision the can.

So try and be productive. Removing BFRs is out of the question.