Command Rank

Warborn · 2005-03-29, 10:52 PM

I don't really like the way CR currently works in the game. In my opinion, it has nothing to do with being a leader. Anyone can invite random people or Outfit mates and over time grind their way to 5. It's because this is really just another form of very standard, BR-like character advancement that there's the question of OS proliferation right now. Remember when OS's used to be rare? These days there are a half-dozen OS's a fight. Find an AMS? Don't worry, it'll get OS'd. See a bunch of enemy BFRs closing on the base? OS to the rescue! Although OS can help break deadlocks, there are other ways that could be done (even if they're not in the game yet) so I think that point is really not enough to keep things as-is.

Specifically, I'm thinking OS should be tied to merits and BR. So should all the other CR abilities that have nothing to do with directing your squad, in fact. Uniform upgrades, EMP, deteting friendlies/enemies, all should be merit abilities. CR should only be for leaders, and thus the CR5's should be the ones who are there because they lead. CEP decay should be in to demote inactive commanders over time, but CR5 should overall be easier to attain, as there's no pot of gold at the end of the rainbow anymore, so to speak.

The whole idea is to make the so-called 'Commando Rank' abilities tied to character progression because, really, that's all they're turning CR into -- character progression. With things as is, CR isn't a tool for leading, it's a way to make your character better. I am anything but a leader and I really don't deserve to be the CR that I am, because I haven't lead a squad in a long, long, long time. Making the formerly CR abilities tied to merits and BR would spare CR from being dragged down by idiots who get CR just for the abilities (that's about 90% of all CR5's, by the way) and yet still let people attain the tools formerly enjoyed by CR5's and below, if they're advanced enough.

So there's my general opinion on the matter. Share yours.

VashTheStamped · 2005-03-30, 12:40 AM

/begin rant

i think all these noob CR5's suck

i got CR5 september 2003 when we had our own "CR5 code"
we wrote rules and guidelines stating what was proper and what was not.

now CR5s are all dumb noobs, spammin global bout how great they are

there needs to be some kinda aptitiude test or something :/

/end rant

Electrofreak · 2005-03-30, 01:33 AM

I think we need to give CR5s "cert points". So say the ability to Global is 4 CR points. Thus a CR 5 could cert in "Empire communication" and have 1 cert point left for "EMP blast" or "Show Friendlies" but not OS. Of course the existing pre-requisites would stay in place, so CR 4s still can't Global. But it would force commanders to choose the manner in which they want to command. The serious leaders would drop OS for the ability to Global, while your standard CR5 nubtard will be able to OS but won't be able to Global, giving us all some friggin peace and quiet.

I also have some ideas concerning reintroducing the Orbital Dropship Centre to PS and turning it into a Command Station that would provide our leaders strategic overviews of the battle and special abilities. If any of you watched the August Ask The Devs video where we interviewed the devs on camera in Orlando, many of the ideas were outlined there.

Warborn · 2005-03-30, 09:23 AM

Originally Posted by VashTheStamped

/begin rant

i think all these noob CR5's suck

i got CR5 september 2003 when we had our own "CR5 code"
we wrote rules and guidelines stating what was proper and what was not.

now CR5s are all dumb noobs, spammin global bout how great they are

there needs to be some kinda aptitiude test or something :/

/end rant

I guarentee you, if they removed the OS/EMP/etc from CR and put in some kind of CEP decay to eventually remove the useless CR5's from the CR5 pool, we'd get stuff like that again. The actual leaders would be the ones who are CR5, and Planetside as a whole would benefit from it. I really hope we see this day once again. The current situation just stinks of a lack of foresight, and it desperately needs to be rectified.

Originally Posted by Electrofreak

I think we need to give CR5s "cert points". So say the ability to Global is 4 CR points. Thus a CR 5 could cert in "Empire communication" and have 1 cert point left for "EMP blast" or "Show Friendlies" but not OS. Of course the existing pre-requisites would stay in place, so CR 4s still can't Global. But it would force commanders to choose the manner in which they want to command. The serious leaders would drop OS for the ability to Global, while your standard CR5 nubtard will be able to OS but won't be able to Global, giving us all some friggin peace and quiet.

What I don't like about this, though, is that it's still tying in stuff like OS to a reward for leading a squad. Most people these days who run squads outside of an Outfit don't run a squad, they invite people and soak up CEP while maybe, if the squaddies are lucky, dropping a waypoint or two. I think, like whatever forms of character progression come in the future to expand on BR, maybe something like what you're suggesting could exist for command abilities. I've seen people suggest squad leaders being able to impart benefits onto their squad -- stuff like that, where people could earn command certs like you're suggesting and become, say, a Tank Commander, reducing the reacquisition timer of all Armored Assault vehicles for people in their squad for a couple certs, increasing armor by 5% with some more certs, etc.

But I just really am not comfortable with the idea of improving your character by grinding out CEP, forcing people to endure shitty pick-up squads run by people who don't give a damn about leading. Hell, maybe even when the beyond-BR progression comes in OS and stuff can be stuck there.

I also have some ideas concerning reintroducing the Orbital Dropship Centre to PS and turning it into a Command Station that would provide our leaders strategic overviews of the battle and special abilities. If any of you watched the August Ask The Devs video where we interviewed the devs on camera in Orlando, many of the ideas were outlined there.

Who's to say if any of that matters anymore though, now that Samhayne is the Lead Designer/Producer.

Lartnev · 2005-03-30, 01:48 PM

Well from what I've seen of SamHayne's correspondance I think he agrees with you.

The problem is and always has been: How do you create a system which rewards good leaders and enables a command hierarchy to function on its own within PlanetSide. I think that Orbital Strikes being a CR reward were there to reflect the fact that it would require some authority to call one in, and it was also probably there to restrict the amount of OSes in the game until a better system was thought up.

Personally I haven't seen a system which genuinely solves the OS overloading problem. Until it has been I would like to see OSes removed from the game entirely, at least until a solution is found. Problem is, you'd have practically every n00b CR5 crying that all their "effort" has been wasted and a compromise would likely result.

KIAsan · 2005-03-30, 11:08 PM

Actually, we could reduce OSs alot by some simple rule changes. First, no OS while cloaked. If you pull out a CUD, you should autodecloak and lose sensor shield implant benefit. Second, you must be stationary for a period of 15 seconds (to give the CUD a chance to uplink) before you can call up the target map.

Another way to limit them is to require teamwork (with a similar system to what is used for flails). A member of your squad must request an OS by using a targeting laser. At that time, then you can pull your CUD out, set the point within a certain radius of the target mark, and pull the trigger).

Finally, make the time between pulling the trigger and initiation more like 15 seconds, with you required to hold your cud and remain stationary (to keep the uplink), at which point the OS would start it's cycle.

These rules wouldn't eliminate the potential for multiple OSs, but they would definitely make CR4/5s a bigger target when they tried to employ them. At least this gives the other team a fighting chance.

edit: Just thought about on more thing, make the CR4/5 with his CUD out flash like he was running an LLU, with corresponding minimap marker. Heck, that would really make it tough to drop down the OSs.

Electrofreak · 2005-03-31, 05:26 AM

Who's to say if any of that matters anymore though, now that Samhayne is the Lead Designer/Producer.

Actually, he was back then too, so we still have a chance. They seemed rather interested in the idea, but with T-Ray gone off the art team, I'm not sure what to think...

Also, as for your prior suggestions, I agree, but I think it'll be hard to implement something like that without all of the CR5s going "WTF GAY I QUIT". I think the devs could slip in something like a CR certification system without too much of an uproar, and it would cut down on the amount of global spamming and OSing. Well, at least global spamming. There would be a minor decrease in the number of OSes through this system because some of the better CR5s will choose not to certify in OS, and those people that just want CR5 for OS won't be acting like nubtards over Global. And when somebody DOES talk on Global, you'll know that he sacrificed the ability to OS to global to his troops, and that says that at least hes willing to be a leader.

I'd suggest a CR cert point system something like this:

1 CR point available automatically at CR 0.

CR1- Waypoint ability unlocked. +1 CR point = 2
CR2- CUD, show Friendlies ability unlocked. +1 CR point = 3
CR3- Draw on Map, EMP burst abilities unlocked. +1 CR point = 4
CR4- Show enemies ability, small OS unlocked. +1 CR point = 5
CR5- Global Chat, Large OS unlocked. +1 CR point = 6

Waypoint ability- Free
Draw on Map- Free
(These are free because they don't utilize the CUD)

Show Friendlies ability- 1 point.
Emp Burst- 2 points.
Show enemies ability- 2 points.
Small OS- 3 points.
Global Chat- 3 points.
Large OS- 4 points.

Now, most CRs will argue that this might be nerfing them a bit too much. But what if we ALSO incorporated your idea? Certain merits could unlock a 1 point CR ability. For example, if you have Air Defender Gold, you unlock the commander ability to swap one base wall turret with a flak turret. Note that since you'll have 2 spare points at CR 2, you'll be able to use these abilities even if you aren't super high in CR. Commanders could then customize themselves this way. A couple other ideas that come to mind:

MAX Operator merit ability improves armor of MAX units within the commander's squad. Level of the MAX Operator merit would determine the bonus the ability provides.

Engineering merit ability allows the commander to improve the effectiveness of CE owned by members of his squad. Mines become more destructive, spitfires more damaging etc. Level of merit changes the amount of bonus the ability provides.

Any specific weapon merit ability would improve slightly the characteristics of weapons of that type carried by friendlies within the commanders squad. Level of merit changes the amount of bonus the ability provides.

Etc etc. The possibilities are huge. I'm sure the devs could come up with even more creative abilities than that as well, hopefully including changes that would allow them to buff/modify their squad home base as well (with improved/AI/AV/AA turrets, etc). And since the abilities would each cost a CR point, the commander would be limited in the number he can use, especially if he has one or more of the default abilities certed. Also it encourages commanders to work towards specific goals themselves rather than just grinding CEP.

I'm going to put a bit more thought into this and consider posting it on the official forums.