Why you don’t need to worry about PS2

DviddLeff · 2011-07-10, 05:31 AM

Reading these forums worries me, as the most vocal people seem to be saying that almost anything that changes PS1 is going to ruin the game, especially any changes that make it feel more like a standard FPS. In particular people are worried about:

class system
offline levelling
specialisation trees
loss of sanctuaries
jetpacks
lower time to kill overall
instant, one button knife kills
squad spawning
sprint
Head shots

I will address all these points in this post but first let me say this:
Every one of these changes and additions seems to have been implemented to make the game appeal to more people, thereby giving the game a larger audience which will in turn mean more money, more post release development and therefore a longer lifespan for the game.

First let me address the class system. People see the new class system as taking away one of the fundamental aspects of the game, stopping us from customising our load outs to allow us to be as effective as we were. This was a bad thing. Why? Take my outdoor load out which I have used in PS since 2003 and with it I was a medic, engineer, rifleman and AV soldier as well as a commander with various powerful tools at my disposal. That’s five roles, each one effective, each one a totally different aspect to the game. Now with the new class system I will be able to choose one of those (well, I imagine rifleman as well) each time I spawn or use an equipment terminal. This is a good thing as it encourages you to focus on a role and excel at it, in the process making it much easier for friendlies to identify who is the medic, who is the AV guy, etc. No longer will one man be able to do many things at any one time.

Offline levelling I initially thought was a terrible, terrible idea. However having experience constantly trickling in allows you to stop worrying about how to earn it most effectively. This means that there is little need to follow the zerg to the massive base fights and then milk the fight for experience, little need to whore kills in towers on a continent where you have low population. It also rewards those people who don’t get much experience because they are setting up defences (which may not be needed as the battle lines change) or those who protect uncontested base hacks just in case the enemy show up.

Specialisation in different roles I was again worried about, however again my fears have been somewhat allayed by the developers. This system allows you to customise your gear to suit the situation or your play style, tweaking the equipment in this way may give you a 20% accuracy enhancement, but as a trade-off other factors will be harmed such as damage or bullet velocity according to the devs. You see this system working very effectively in Battlefield: Bad Company 2 where the various unlockable specialisations are balanced against each other very well.

The loss of sanctuaries I complained about back when Smedley first mentioned it but now I see it as a good thing. Why? It speeds up getting into combat, and makes it a lot easier for new players to find a fight quickly. Sanctuary for most is an extra loading screen and wasted time when they just want to get into a fight and play. Yes it is very useful for raids to assemble in but with unconquerable bases on every continent there will be plenty of space to do this.

Jetpacks are something I suggested in my upgrade project as they will give players a whole new role to play in the game; that of fast assault. Jetpacks if done right will give the player more mobility in the new games more vertical environment, allowing them to use their speed to attack their more heavily armoured and probably armed opponents from unexpected angles. These troops must rely on this speed and surprise to survive as if they get into a drawn out face to face fight their low armour rating will mean they go down quick. Plus it gets the Tribes community an alternative if Tribes Universe sucks.

Lower time to kill is something I have been asking for since the Rexo buff. The Rexo buff near crippled low damage per shot weapons such as the pistols and MA rifles; they simply needed more shots to kill Rexo at any range. This meant that HA weapons had a much greater advantage at close range, still being able to kill in a little over a second yet the MA rifles needed 2-3 seconds of sustained fire to kill, which then left you with a near empty clip so the next guy you ran into took you down, while HA weapons could kill 2-3 people with a single clip and still have ammo left over. One thing that I simply do not understand is people who complain that lower TTK will remove tactics from the game; it will massively add to it as no longer will players be able to simply have the best weapon for the range and rely on it alone to get them kills. Skill and tactics will be the most important factor, skill because quick aiming becomes paramount and tactics as once you flank the enemy it will be easy to destroy them, not simply have them turn around and take you down anyway as they have HA and you don't.

The knife in Planetside was near useless for anyone but an infiltrator with melee booster. Knives should be a powerful weapon, but only if you are foolish enough to let the enemy get close enough. As long as we do not get the Modern Warfare warping attack from 20 feet away, and instead get the knife from Battlefield it will be fine. Lower TTK will also mean it is much harder for the enemy to get close to you to use the knife anyway. Also bear in mind that PS2 will have much bigger and less claustrophobic environments than even Battlefield, making it much less likely that you will get as close to the enemy before combat engages.

Squad spawning is something that will make the game much better for a lot of people who simply want to join up with their squad out in the field. It has been stated that it won’t work indoors, and people are saying that you will arrive via drop pod; so it’s just the same as jumping in the HART in the existing game.

I cannot believe people are complaining about sprinting… just because it is in a game you don’t like does not mean it does not belong in PS2; it allows you to cross open ground quickly to avoid enemy fire which is especially important with lower time to kill.

Many people are near enough wetting themselves with rage over the addition of head shots. People seem to have a few common concerns with the system:

Aimbots will ruin the game
Some kid will shoot 6 people in a row
A hundred people shooting at you at once someones bound to get a head shot
Any rapid fire, area of effect or shotgun will get a headshot instantly

To address these one at a time:

Aimbots will ruin the game. Just like COF hackers and speed hackers do now? No they don't, as a credit card is required to play the game. Even if the game does have a free to play element just get people to put down credit card details when they sign up; then just ban them and the card if they are caught hacking. Oh and not to mention PS2 will have a dedicated anti cheat system and active GMs come release at least.
Some kid will shoot 6 people in a row. So you are complaining about skill being a factor... wait what? Almost every FPS game of the past 15 years has had head shots, if you haven't learn to aim by now you never will.
A hundred people shooting at you at once someones bound to get a head shot. In that situation you made a poor tactical choice to stand in front of the entire enemy army; you will die whether there are head shots or not. In most fights you will have 3 or 4 people aiming at you at most unless you are the only target they can see, its up to you to take cover. If you get caught in a cross fire you have been flanked and deserve to die.
Any rapid fire, area of effect or shotgun will be more likely to get a head shot. Rapid fire means low damage, and no one has said its one hit kill on the head. Area of effect can be checked for once per explosion, if the heads hit then more damage, but again no need for one hit kill for all weapons. Shotguns individual pellets wont do much damage either, so again unlikely to kill.

Overall these changes should work well together, and if they do not we have beta to hopefully adjust things, and remember we don’t want a simple Planetside clone that effectively dies within a couple of years, we want a game that will still be going strong 8 years on.

Elude · 2011-07-10, 05:42 AM

I agree with everything you've mentioned except the knife, I think the knife should be removed, and bashing with your weapon should take its place.

basti · 2011-07-10, 05:50 AM

Agreeing with almost all, just no the knive.

Insta kill is bad. It should be just another weapon, not powerful enough to kill with one hit. Otherwise you will end up with cloakers farming people. Yes, infil is in, got confirmed during FF, they even where in the trailer. YOu just didnt see them.

SKYeXile · 2011-07-10, 06:00 AM

Yea I was in the same boat with classes, off-line and leveling, after they gave us more details on it, it seems like less of an issue and features if don't right, could be a benefit, aslong as i can still wear my rexo, with HA have a medical and and bank to heal and repair myself, i think everybody will be happy. Planetside was built as a solo friendly and a team game, lets leep it that way, but also enhance the benefit of running with an proper medic in your squad.

I would still like the sanc, personally i dont have much of an issue with pressing M, seeing where a fight is, getting a reaver and flying there, infantry and ground users may.

If they have jetpack ingame, im sure that will shut everybody up about people bailing with agile on a tower when a rexo jetpacks up there.

The lower time to kill, well i think thats a tough cookie, you have your views, i dont agree with them, quick aiming or reflexes, sure some people have them some dont, i always thought it took more skill to aim in planetside that other game because you had to hit your target several times, rather than just spray and prey like in COD, especially in hardcore mode. lowering the time to kill would increase camping and make taking towers with the lack of zerg busting equipment quite a living hell, in planetside you can atleast now pop your head into a tower of lobby take a look, maybe throw a frag at somebody and runout, with a faster TTK it will likely mean that breaking those vital defence points without some sort of flash bangs or stun grenades or something will be difficult. and nodoubt a max push willbe needed to break those lobby or tower holds, MAXSide 2!...pass.

kinfe should not be quick or instant kill, like every other scifi shooter you should have to switch to it. we dont want infiltrators running around stealth, instant gibbing people. darklight is overpowered anyway and should not be in the next game. i dunno what game you have been playing though, but there is nothing open about a base in planetside. its way more enclosed that and battlefield map iv ever played.

squad spawning, well if its via heart, only outdoors i see it been fine aslong as there is a timer.

as for sprint...ITS CALLED SURGE!!!

CutterJohn · 2011-07-10, 06:05 AM

Originally Posted by DviddLeff

Offline levelling I initially thought was a terrible, terrible idea. However having experience constantly trickling in allows you to stop worrying about how to earn it most effectively. This means that there is little need to follow the zerg to the massive base fights and then milk the fight for experience, little need to whore kills in towers on a continent where you have low population. It also rewards those people who don’t get much experience because they are setting up defences (which may not be needed as the battle lines change) or those who protect uncontested base hacks just in case the enemy show up.

My only beef with the offline leveling is..

No cue. Have to log in once a day to set them up. Annoying. At least make it two or three days.

And you still need battlerank to unlock higher tier stuff/get cert points. And they said you will improve your training time by playing. Meaning.. The system won't work for its stated purpose, since you still need to grind bep, and can advance faster anyway.

No deal breaker, but I fear it will be just be an annoyance with no redeeming qualities.

The knife in Planetside was near useless for anyone but an infiltrator with melee booster. Knives should be a powerful weapon, but only if you are foolish enough to let the enemy get close enough. As long as we do not get the Modern Warfare warping attack from 20 feet away, and instead get the knife from Battlefield it will be fine. Lower TTK will also mean it is much harder for the enemy to get close to you to use the knife anyway. Also bear in mind that PS2 will have much bigger and less claustrophobic environments than even Battlefield, making it much less likely that you will get as close to the enemy before combat engages.

Not so much a fan of instakill knives just because knife kills, unless by surprise, are a long, bloody affair. And any way you look at it, a bullet is more damaging. I guess its just some hollywood ninjas are awesome and swords can fight bullets! bleeding into gaming.

I would be fine with a battlefield2 knife though. Its not my preference, but having to switch to it made it much more situational instead of an instant out panic button like the knives in BC2.

Halo had it right imo. Melee took several hits from the front. Back hits killed. The 'knife' was a fearsome thing that looked like it could do what was advertised.

But thats minor stuff really. The sky isn't falling. PS1 had a plethora of bad balance and poor ideas, and no small number of awesome ideas. PS2 will be different than PS1. I've no doubt some things will seriously annoy me(like increased asymmetry and 1 empire per server.

), but other things I will love.

SKYeXile · 2011-07-10, 06:21 AM

Originally Posted by CutterJohn

My only beef with the offline leveling is..

No cue. Have to log in once a day to set them up. Annoying. At least make it two or three days.

And you still need battlerank to unlock higher tier stuff/get cert points. And they said you will improve your training time by playing. Meaning.. The system won't work for its stated purpose, since you still need to grind bep, and can advance faster anyway.

No deal breaker, but I fear it will be just be an annoyance with no redeeming qualities.

yea its still early with this system we dont know much about it, im assuming though you can only put skillup into certs you have trained. and that those skill points cannot be refunded they're stuck there. lets say you get BR4 the first day, you buy your MA, Rexo and an ATV to get around.

Im not quite sure how the class system fits in here, but for the sake of argument we'll say you selected assault because you plan to skillup MA.

in the MA tree you would have access to:

Punisher
sweeper
ES MA
spiker

now im going to presume their are multiple levels of each of those, say at least 4 upgrade or mods you can get for each. the first 1 for each might take a day, the second perhaps 3, the third perhaps a week, the fourth, perhaps 3 weeks to get, so by just getting BR4 and picking up MA, you have acouple of months worth of options to go for there, but its stupid putting points into all of them you put a day into ES MA, login the next day and get BR8, you drop your rexo and pickup HA, which allows you to spend more skillpoints in other certs.

THAT IS MY INTERPRETATION OF THE SYSTEM, IF YOU HAVE ANOTHER THEORY OR KNOW REAL DETAILS I WOULD LIKE TO HEAR THEM.

Also they said their maybe a mobile app to spend points.

Forsaken One · 2011-07-10, 06:51 AM

If I have to deal with anything like Tribes that would be a dealer breaker for me. Planetside for me is no-little monkey movement. being able to jetpack+firing a weapon at the same time would count to me as monkey movement.

I hope there is something where everyone can group up in a big place. even if its a VR like place inside the foothold.

The one shot kill knife to me is good only when its under certain rules. Like you are trading your ability to use any ranged damage stuff for full Melee power. (aka if you are carrying the said kinfe you can't carry a gun of any type at all. you would spawn with the knife and won't even be able to pick up anyone elses guns.)

Aractain · 2011-07-10, 07:08 AM

The way they explain it, its rather impressive and actually an improvement over Planetside 1. Im actually excited. I like that Higby guy as well, good hair.

He said quick knife but is that actually a instant kill meele attack or is it just a one button basic meele attack?

Btw I think he undersold/valued the offline leveling thing in the panel vid I watched. Not needing to actively go out an earn XP all the time to advance means you can play the damn game rather than farm kills. Exactlly what I wanted! It also means crap players will still advance at a resonable rate which is important for player retention (assuming they will get the BR which will probably not be that hard?).

More edits: CutterJohn got it right, having to log in each day to setup a queue is going to be frustrating. Make it 3 - 7 days. There will be plenty of weekend warriors who don't want to log in every day just to maintain their character.

Death2All · 2011-07-10, 07:08 AM

So we shouldn't worry that a lot of the mechanics that made Planetside what it is aren't present in the game because you like them? Hmm.

I know they literally JUST unveiled all this info to us and the game is still in development but when you hear these drastic changes to the game you can't help but worry. We all love Planetside and want the second to be just as amazing if not better so of course we're going to criticize the things that dishearten us because they don't at all resemble Planetside.

PS has a really strong and passionate community. Everybody loves the game, although they'll openly bash it (and rightfully so at times.) they still love it deep down inside.

On the bright side however, SOE is notorious for making amazing games at launch and then fucking them up down the line...So I guess we have a year and half of great gameplay until it's inevitably fucked up down the line. So there's that!

Rarntogo · 2011-07-10, 09:33 AM

I dont have a problem with knives being more powerful. My favorite game before Planetside was Counterstrike. Knives were a good weapon but you had to get close. In my opinion it was the best deterrent to camping because it was embarrassing to get knifed. I loved knifing someone camping with an AWP while he was looking thru the scope, unaware of what was around him. Either way, knife or no knife. doesnt really matter all that much to me. If you can get close enough to an enemy to knife him you should be rewarded with a good kill. As for Infiltrators.... I can see your points but that has a simple solution. No knives available if you use an infi suit?

Wakken · 2011-07-10, 09:35 AM

About the knife... What about cloakers? Will we have people running around as a cloaker and knife everyone for lots of youtoobe views?

EDIT; got ninjad :P

would be kinda weird to me if we start baning certain items for different suits.

xcel · 2011-07-10, 10:45 AM

Originally Posted by SKYeXile

If they have jetpack ingame, im sure that will shut everybody up about people bailing with agile on a tower when a rexo jetpacks up there.

Keep in mind ....they said they were JUMP JETS not JET PACKS....there's a difference. I'm thinking like the storm jet pack trooper from Star Wars Battle Front 2 (if anyone has played it).
If the jet packs only have a short burst and don't sustain in the air for long, I would be fine with that.

DviddLeff · 2011-07-10, 11:36 AM

If I was implementing jet packs for agile suit only I would make it half the strength of the VS MAX suit; enough to get you onto a base wall or first storey of a tower, but that's it.

One hit kill knives and infiltrators are a problem, but it really depends how good the guy using the stealth suit is. If anyone played the Steam mod The Hidden, you had a invisible guy with a knife (and pipe bombs) against a handful of normal players... it was incredibly hard for the lone invisible guy to win.

Bags · 2011-07-10, 12:14 PM

You are wrong about the class system. They are just general guide lines, and you can cert whatever you want if Matt Higby is to be believed.

Originally Posted by Matt

the cert system is really, really free-form. You can be as specialized or generalized as you want to be. If you want to put all your advancement time into Reavers you can do that, and you'll have a more maneuverable, durable and powerful vehicle with plenty of options for secondary weapons and fun gadgets. If you want to spread your certification across lots of different things and be more of a jack of all trades, go for it.

And I'd like to add this about squad spawning:

Originally Posted by Matt

Squad spawning is really tricky to balance, no doubt. What we haven't talked about are things like the requirements to do it (needs a relatively advanced spec'd squad leader in your squad to use) and it will be on some kind of cooldown based on the squad leader. It's definitely not designed to be your primary respawn method.

We're definitely going to be making a huge push around Planetside 2, have no doubt.

But yes, as long as knife isn't OSOK, and TTK doesn't get as low as 2 - 3 bullets from every weapon I'm not terribly worried.

IceyCold · 2011-07-10, 02:52 PM

I agree with pretty much every point you made.

Just 2 things:

Knife-
Personally I like knife kills in a game, but in Planetside 2 this is something they REALLY need to be careful with. I would prefer an equipable knife that takes 2-3 hits to kill with, or maybe allow for back stabbing where you have to be directly behind the person in order to score an instant kill. Just my thoughts, but the Knife in Planetside wasn't that bad to me.

Low TTK-
I want LOWER TTK than Planetside 1, and I stated this often, but I don't want them too low. For instance, I would think that a guy in heavy armor being able to take 8-10 bullets before dieing from the average assault rifle isn't a big deal to me; it sounds pretty fair to be honest. But there is such a thing as TOO LOW; if you played WWIIOnline you know this. NOTHING is more infuriating to the average person than being killed instantly after walking 5 minutes.