So, space, eh?

basti · 2011-08-24, 03:36 PM

Recent information and a very special threat about Outfit space stations got me thinking: What would be the stuff I really want for space combat in Planetside 2? Its obviously coming at some point post release if the game launches good and has a high enough subscriber number, so theres no harm in just throwing out ideas.

So, space. We alll played a few Space combat games in our time. Wing Commander 1-5, Freelancer, Freespace, Jumpgate (the old one guy, not evolution :P ), The entire X series, SWGs Jump to Lightspeed, Elite, you name it.
Theres a bunch of them out there, and we more or less enjoyed them. But is something like this what we really want, just flying around in spaceships, small to big, and shoot each other? I think not, there is much more potential there, potential not yet seen in ANY game EVER before.

And i call it SpaceSide!

Imagine you cant just fly your little wee fighters, bombers and interceptors in the game, imagine you could fly everything, from the very tiny modified Space flight capable reaver, to the big ass Carrier. Imagine you could stand in your Rexo on the HULL of such a Carrier. Imagine you could Jump from the Carrier into space, using small thrusters to steer, landing on the Hull of the enemy Capital ship next to your capital ship.
Imagine Driving a Tank on a asteroid. Imagine Flying a Cruiser full with your outfit buddys gunning the turrets and flying fighter escort into a hot intergalactic battle. Imagine a combination of the space battles seen in BSG, SW, ST and whatsoever. The real deal, the full package, something that blows you away the moment you see it.

Keep in mind that this is just me babbeling. We lack information on the current gameplay, and putting space combat on top of gameplay we dont know yet is pretty hard.

And: the Numbers here have a reason. Each number is a idea itself, means if you have input, make sure you include the number.
So, ideas:

1. General Gameplay and territory capturing

The Space between the Planets would be divided into sectors. Sectors are pretty much the continents of space. They are big, and let 1000 players into them to fight each other. Unlike continents on the planet, there is no uncapturable base, means you can actually capture a sector and hold it. Its yours, until the enemy attacks it and takes it back. Each sector would be connected to other sectors by a Warp Gate (the space version). They function pretty much like current Warpgates: They take you from one fixed position to another, but you could broadcast through sectors if you own them. There is no untakeable sector that serves as a sanctuary, instead, there are the motherships.

Motherships: They are pretty much mobile sancs. Destroying them is impossible, because these ships are the only ones that have a own Jump Drive equipped. If they get into danger, they simply jump away, into another friendly sector, or if none are there, into a random enemy sector, to start the crusade again.

Besides that, there are Carriers. Those ships are NPC controlled, just like the mothership. They are stationary, they dont just go and join the fight. They serve as last line of defense, the ship where you reform and assault the enemy, your sanctuary pretty much. But those ships can be destroyed. In terms of Planetside, those ships are pretty much your last base. They could also be captured, but thats much harder than destroying them, but even more rewarding (you have a enemy super capital now, your faction doesnt need to build one now, means its a MASSIVE ressource gain for everyone involved)

In each sector, there are multiple capture points. These go from Small asteroid based to really really big asteroid bases (those you would attack with tanks on the outside and the inside, before you get into the actual building to footzerg), Mining stations, space stations, old destroyed capital ships, asteroid fields, nebulas, tiny moons, etc. I go into detail here if i actually get some more specific ideas

In order to capture the sector, you need to hold most, if not all, of those capture points, AND send the enemy fleet away. Means you need to send their Mothership (if in sector) into retreat mode, or destroy their Carrier. Once they have no more bases left, you got the sector.
In order to open up a enemy sector, to get your Carrier or Mothership into it, you need to hold one of the capture points for several minutes.

2. Vehicle and Infantary Combat

Lets start with Infantary here: The Classes would be pretty much exactly the same as in ground play, mean sniper, Heavy grunt, medic, etc. But instead of ending in just agile or rexo, you wear a space ready armor. With todays technology, and thanks to the nanites, the only real difference to the ground suits would be that nothing of your body is exposed (not even the faces of TR maxes

).
Once in your space suit, there is nothing stopping you from just going out onto the hull of the ship/base you spawned in, and jumping into open space. Well, if the object your on is large enough, gravity may drag you back, but that would be only for tiny moons and big roids. The rest would allow you to float in peace, in space. You may get a customization for every armor, little thruster packs that allow you to steer for a limited period of time, to get you from one object to another. Just be careful using your guns while not standing, recoil may boost you somewhere else, or just lets you spin completly uncontrolled.

The entire infantary combat part would come very handy for several parts: Assaulting one of the capture points, assaulting and trying to capture one of the enemys smaller Capital ships (cruisers, frigates etc), assaulting and capturing a enemys outfit base (yeees, they are here, see waaayy below).
Now, to blow your mind a little: Imagine these 3 scenarios:
1. A base where gravity is lighter than normal, means you have something you could call the ground, but you could jump quite far
2. a Base where there is no gravity at all, means you could walk on all surfaces, or just float through the corridors on your way to kill the enemy
3. a Base where artificial gravity is on all surfaces, means you would walk like spiderman.

Ground Vehicle Combat:
Some of those capture points may be big asteroids, Tiny moons, or even reeeeaaalllyy big structures where vehicles would come in handy. Imagine you driving a tank on the outside of an asteroid, think thats enough to let you see what im talking about. No more text needed here.

3. Vehicles:
There would need to be a lot of new and different vehicles, lets go from small to big:
Most of the ground vehicles, like tanks, Atvs, AMS. They would only be useful for attacking a big structure where they can actually be used. In open space, they are pretty pointless. They could also be useful for attacking the Hangar of an enemy ship.

The Space Reaver: a slightly modified version of the usual reaver, ment to support ground vehicle assaults. Pretty weak against the usual space fighter, so dont try dogfighting with it.

Space Ships, from small to big:

Interceptors/light fighters (The mossy of space): Ment to intercept enemy Heavy Fighters and Bombers, but very weak against bigger ships. Very good handeling, to allow you fight inside structures like a hollow roid.

Heavy fighters: Ment to fight against bombers, heavy fighters and small Capital class ships. Quite some firepower and good armor, but lacking speed and manuverability.

Bombers: Ment to attack Enemy Capital Ships. They have ALOT of firepower, and carry straight fire torpedos, but have almost no chance against wee little interceptors. They have 1 or 2 gunner slots for turrets, for additional protection, but they need fighter escort to succeed.

Troop Transporters, the Galaxy/Lodestar of space: 1 Pilot, no guns, 3 gunners for light cover, can carry up to 20 Passangers, and 3 Tanks. They fit in a Hangar, means you use them to land on capture points or enemy ships in order to assault them.

Those 4 are optainable by every player. Go to term, pull it, get a gunner, fight.

Gunboats: Tiny Capitals. Ment as escort ships to support bigger capitals. Several Turrets (5) Need all 6 players to go to a term and agree to get one, and designate a pilot. Squad spaceships pretty much.

Frigates: Med Size Capitals: They come with a Anti Capital main weapon and about 12 Gunner slots, as well as a small hangar to pull Reavers and Ground vehicles. Ship is ment to be the base of operation when attacking a capture point. They lack a way to transport the ground vehicles safley onto the surface, means they need a Troop Transporter to Land in their Hangar, or have the tank drivers just drive into space, hoping that they hit their target, and dont end up floating into the black abyss.
Need all 13 guys to go to term and pull it, just like the gunboat. Ment as Platoon Ships, so only a few out there.

Battleships: The Big ones: They come with a pilot, a BIG anti Capital Gun, Torpedo Launchers, up to 30 Gunners, and a lot of other cool extras (like Stereo TV!). Those beasts are very very rare, only optainable at the Mothership, and ONLY for outfits! Yes, THESE BEASTS are actually outfit bases for the big outfits. Getting them is quite costy, loosing them will make everyone of said outfit cry for a week or two, but having them is just extreeemmmllyy awesome. They can be captured by enemy outfits, or just get destroyed.

Meh, done for now, brain went empty. Discuss!

Atuday · 2011-08-24, 03:47 PM

Sounds like a great game. When do you start development? What's the planned release date? Is there going to be a forum on the web site so we can discuss this with the other devs? In case you can't tell I'm really bored today... But really this does sound good. Go create a company and make it. Go right now. Bye

basti · 2011-08-24, 04:14 PM

Originally Posted by Atuday

Sounds like a great game. When do you start development? What's the planned release date? Is there going to be a forum on the web site so we can discuss this with the other devs? In case you can't tell I'm really bored today... But really this does sound good. Go create a company and make it. Go right now. Bye

And Who are you?

Zulthus · 2011-08-24, 04:15 PM

Originally Posted by Atuday

Sounds like a great game. When do you start development? What's the planned release date? Is there going to be a forum on the web site so we can discuss this with the other devs? In case you can't tell I'm really bored today... But really this does sound good. Go create a company and make it. Go right now. Bye

.

EASyEightyEight · 2011-08-24, 05:00 PM

Planetside 2: Starside Intercept.

Infantry should only be inside the hulls of frigates, cruisers, battleships, and carriers, all outfit owned. Vehicles would include star fighters, star bombers, troop transports and probably the empire specific aircraft, and for a dash of tempting fate, giant ****ing robots (but only in space.) Orbital stations would have their use in enhancing leadership skills planetside (drop pods, radar, OS, etc.) and most importantly, shooting down enemy capital ships in low orbit.

Frankly, if we're bringing actual infantry and ground vehicles into a field without gravity, it stops feeling like space, and more like planetside... with less/without gravity. Fighting over an asteroid will feel like most other fights, only across a smaller surface, and with a permanent starscape backdrop with the glory of Auraxis below us. I'd rather they just allow us to bring those large cruisers into the airspace above an existing battlefield on Auraxis.

In my opinion, when they introduce space, a lot of it should cater to the star-fighter fans that DID enjoy Wing Commander, X-wing vs Tie Fighter, Rogue Squadron, Crimson Skies, etc, while still involving SOME aspect of the FPS. I think boarding an enemy vessel is where that FPS element would best fit in. I know SOE likes to tout the power of the Forgelight engine, but I wouldn't be expecting infantry to be coded to render standing at all sorts of angles across the surface of a ships hull.

Vehicles (such as a large bipedal machine) could though. Aircraft in PS2 will be capable of barrel rolls after all. I wouldn't be surprised if we could flip our ground based vehicles if we're not careful. BTW, I'm not thinking BFR big, I'm thinking more like a Mossy upright big, and reaver/lightning capability strong, only it's main function is to sacrifice maneuverability for utility. It's more supposed to be a rig for maintaining vital structures across the hull of the ship, such as turrets, radar, and engines. The outbreak of war just encouraged the development of really big guns for them.

Basically, look at Star Wars: Battlefront 2 for a good example of how space combat could work. I just don't like the idea of a bunch of little-$#!%s and battle tanks scrambling across the hull of a starship. Just takes away from the feeling that is fighting in space in my opinion. Besides, I really want those hulls to look like hell when the ship is about to blow, so I'm skeptical about mechs even

basti · 2011-08-24, 05:16 PM

I see you point, but the idea is to have uniquie battles. It wouldnt exactly feel like a planet, im pretty sure it would feel rather different fighint with your tank on the surface of a roid.

But still, i see that you rather see big space battles a la Star wars, without max units standing on the hulls.

Getting your capitals into a planetary fight is a no go. For once, seamless planetary transition is impossible for the game if you still want a good FPS expirience, and on the other hand, bombing a planet with a low oribal cruiser is just madness. How would you counter that while being part of the ground battle?

The reason why i want to be able to glide throu space as infantary is pretty simple: Options. Space fight is fun for us, but a lot of people wont really enjoy it that much. I want to give those guys the option to just do it their way, while i cover them in my Heavy Fighter.

Having Capitals just outfit owned is quite a neat idea. But then you may end up not seeing much of them, and end up with just big fighter swarms fighting each other. Unless you bring in NPC controlled Capitals, and nobody wants that really.

Elude · 2011-08-24, 05:26 PM

I imagine space combat being on a much smaller scale, something along the lines of shattered horizon with vehicles, and you fighting over territories around the planet.

Sirisian · 2011-08-24, 05:34 PM

Originally Posted by Elude

I imagine space combat being on a much smaller scale, something along the lines of shattered horizon with vehicles, and you fighting over territories around the planet.

I imagine it being a PS4 exclusive game on the scale of EVE online.

FIREk · 2011-08-24, 06:30 PM

I think you let your mind go with carriers, vehicles and troops alongside simple space fighters and bombers.

Big-ass ships only make sense in a game like EVE, in which you need to personally (or through your corporation, but never really for free) invest resources, and be prepared to lose them, if you want to pilot a big ship. I'm pretty sure that PS2's resource system wouldn't cut it on this scale and, if there were no "personal" resources involved, who gets to decide who pilots the huge carrier, and who just flies a small fighter?

I imagine PS2's space element as a meta-game alongside the traditional groundside combat.
There's no open space, only Warpgate relays in space. These are the strategic objectives, maybe along with some real estate on planets' orbits, like space stations and whatnot.
Keeping specific warpgates under your empire's control would somehow yield benefits both to SpaceSide and to PlanetSide players. For instance, the more space stations around planet X your empire has, the more often you can use orbital strikes.
After capturing a Warpgate/station you could set up and repair defenses and move to the next objective.
As for spacecraft, I think all you really need is 3 classes of fighters (light, medium, heavy), 2 classes of bombers (light and heavy) and an ultra-light stealth recon/fighter craft. Maybe a maintenance ship as well (to repair defenses, so the bombers don't get bored). Maybe an electronic warfare ship at some point.
I don't think there's room for capiral ships in a game like this, unless it's capturable real-estate too, but that wouldn't make that much sense.

Edit: Hell, it could go both ways. Infantry could have objectives to disrupt enemy space defenses, upload viruses etc.

So it wouldn't just be space pilots fighting for the sake of groundpounders.

MrVicchio · 2011-08-24, 06:38 PM

Sounds like great expansion material.

Talek Krell · 2011-08-24, 06:38 PM

Maybe the thing to do with infantry is make it possible for them to fight on their own in space, but really, really impractical. What I'm thinking is that there shouldn't be an invisible wall or anything, but the distances are just so great that they're effectively limited to short operations near installations or ships like "take a missile launcher and get rid of that camping reaver" or "jump out the airlock toward that enemy ship, they'll never see it coming!". Having the capital ships require a full crew to even pull seems like a clever idea. If done well it would keep them from being spammy without being too rare for combat to happen.

Originally Posted by EASyEightyEight

It's more supposed to be a rig for maintaining vital structures across the hull of the ship, such as turrets, radar, and engines.

Maybe give it a few tricks too? Like planting bombs on the outside of bases to open up new routes of attack, and so on.

EASyEightyEight · 2011-08-24, 07:29 PM

The problem here though is vacuums (or the belief of such a thing in PS2 anyway.) While changing the geometry of the world shouldn't be impossible for the Forgelight engine (I mean, if SOE is talking about it at as something in the future...) the problem is then putting in systems that differentiate from infantry dead zones to infantry supportive zones within a ship. I'm all for some form of hull breach to insert troops however, like something that can carve through the hull of a ship and deploy the troops held within, I just imagine we'd more than likely see specific hard points rather than just a land anywhere on the hull and chip away system.

I can understand why people would want to be a little infantry guy floating from hull to hull, the problem is that they're very small, and in space, I expect fighters and bombers to be moving rather fast at all times due to dog-fighting, bombing runs, avoiding hull turrets, typical space combat stuff. They shouldn't be expected to find the nats drifting from ship to ship.

I do have to vouch for some form of capital ships however. Space combat just seems so empty without frigates, cruisers, battleships, and carriers duking it out. Maybe not 15 ships against 15 ships, but at least 1-3 pre-set ships during any space combat battle, where the ships can be captured or destroyed (anything above a certain threshold would be scuttled after a time.) The orbital station would be the real reason the empires would be bothering with fighting in orbit however. The ships are just there to make things even more epic because let's face it: space is space. There's not a whole lot to look at besides... stars and Auraxis. Maybe it's moon(s) if it has any in this iteration. It shouldn't be any more geometrically intense than actual planetside combat (360 degree movement skybox filled with lots of big things vs mandatory terrain filled with lots of decorative things.)

basti · 2011-08-24, 07:55 PM

I like where you guys take this.

Clearly jumping out of your cap ship in rexo to float all across the galaxy is not very useful. Going out there would indeed just be useful if your cap ship is actually very close to the target designation. For example, if your outfit tries to capture a enemy ship, or if you just want to get that capture point.

Its ment to support troops by giving them a point from where they can start their assault. Once they reached their target designation, they mostly fight for themself. The only real problem could be spaceships attacking the troops on the surface of a roid, but i think thats where fighter cover has to take place. With high, really high damage on impact for those space ships, you would think twice if you really want to get that close to the roid.

Hull breaches and just ramming a capture ship into the enemys ship hull sounds extremly awesome, but thats something that propably wont work in the next few years, technically. It would be enough just getting that troop transport into the enemy hangar, or just go in airlocks.

Fire: Yea, Cap ships need to be limited. There are several ways of doing that. I already got one with the "get everyone to pull together" stuff. That pretty much stops the spam right away. Getting ressources into the mix as well would just finish it. Im assuming you actually keep the ressoruces you gain, means you would have to spend some of your wealth to get a cap ship. On top of that, theres the class system. There could be several traits for space ships, one for assault craft, one for bombers and troop transports, and one for gunboats and frigs deeper down the road. That would also limit the spam for a loooonng time. And if it just gets troublesome, you could always just hard limit the number of cap ships used, or other stuff. In the end, getting even the gunboat would mean your squad needs enough teamwork to get together and pull it together. Random squads would do that once, maybe twice, but it would take ages every time.

Keep im mind im just throwing ideas around. But in the very end, we all want the same: epic space battles, really epic space battles. Because then, we all can happily add Space sims to the list of games we will never buy again, right beside FPS games.

Talek Krell · 2011-08-24, 08:14 PM

You could also consider making capital ships, or at least the larger ones, work more like the titans in BF 2142 than the ships in the X games. So rather than having an actual pilot they're more like a base that can be commanded to move. It would be nice to have some way of doing pinpoint maneuvers as well though, so maybe either an optional pilot or a more complex order system than 2142 had.

Elude · 2011-08-24, 08:15 PM

I think you guys are looking into this beyond the capability of it being an expansion, it might as well be its own stand alone game with some compatibility between Planetside 2.

You don't need dozens of frigates or battleships fighting against each other to have all out warfare in space, I see nothing wrong with just taking infantry on a massive scale in space, and giving them equipment/vehicles fit for space. All the combat being centered around a planet and players fighting over space stations, satellites, and asteroids.

Originally Posted by Sirisian

I imagine it being a PS4 exclusive game on the scale of EVE online.

As if system requirements were even the problem with EVE being on the consoles. I highly doubt you will ever see a game on the scale of EVE on a console system, even one such as the PS4.