Warp & ADADA

DarkSkyes · 2011-11-23, 05:21 AM

Hi

(Apologies if this has been discussed before)

Can anyone shed some light on the warp effect of the new forge light engine and if it will effect the game play or not as it did in ps1? Warp as many people know was a exploit? that really pissed people off in PS1 some people you just could not hit or if you did hit the hits didn't register - i believe this is why many people left the game as people who didn't know what it was thought the others were hacking.

It would really suck to see this in game as it seems battlefield and cod have eradicated this poor coding.

Higby? T-ray?

Coreldan · 2011-11-23, 05:37 AM

I think Higby said that the ADAD wouldnt work anymore. Client side info hasnt really been used for a while in games anymore, but we do have to remember that cod or bf dont come close to the scale of battles we are used to in PS. That MAY set some special requirements for the netcode..

SKYeXile · 2011-11-23, 06:18 AM

Its not poor coding, its coding that allows 400 players to play an FPS game at once in 2003. The coding is amazing.

Now i think its pretty safe to assume that that wont be any warp in Planetside 2.

For starters, PS2 will use the hybrid client/server netcode, the same as BF3, a hit on your screen will be a hit, the same as PS1, but with added security not seen in PS1, sorry i dont know many specifics about this exact coding, but what i do know is:

Warp has nothing to do with whether the game uses client or serverside hit detection, people warp in planetside for 2 reasons, the first, the games uses movement prediction, it predicts where your character is going to be based of previous data, and renders that characters movement based off the last received movement speed and direction of each player, that's why you see people go through the ground or up through the roof when running up stairs. this method of predicting is called extrapolation. the wrap in planetside is also very noticeable because the PS2 server sends packets at 5 ticks per second, most typical shooters send packets at about 30. so when the the server receives new data, every .200sec, if there is no packet loss, the server updates where everybody is on your screen, warping them there.

Why wont this happen in PS2?
For starters while most game still have extrapolation these days, its for backup only and used in cased of extreme packet loss, why when you drop connection everybody runs in a straight line into walls in basicly any game you play. Planetside should switch to using interpolation like most other games, what that does is render your movement based off previous game states its receives and render your characters movement between the 2 data points. this wont be a problem if they up planetside 2s tickrate, while i doubt we will see 30, a tickrate of even double would mean you're only running .100ms+ping behind the server state.

each system has its downsides, but the main problem for each is the tickrate, while planetsides system may wrap you through buildings roof and floors, if planetside 2 is to use interpolation with a low tick rate it could still render movement through a pillar if its 2 data points are on either side of a pillar.

QUESTIONS?!?

Redshift · 2011-11-23, 08:38 AM

There's less need for predicting the movement of characters in PS2 since i'm sure it's not being designed for dial up like PS1. ADAD only worked because the server predicted movement, with better pings they don't need to worry about that.

Sirisian · 2011-11-23, 11:12 AM

Originally Posted by IDukeNukeml

expect a 300ms delay no matter what though. thousands of people with 43ms pings to each other is impossible. There will always be lag and there is no way around that.

I played PS1 with a 33 ms latency to their servers and to gemini. Your claim is false. Also assuming there will always be lag is also false. A big reason for the client-side hit detection is to accomodate users with a high latency without penalizing them.

Sirisian · 2011-11-23, 01:15 PM

Originally Posted by IDukeNukeml

Your ping to X server is in fact 31. Bob's ping to X server is 300. Your ping to bob is now 300. He will not get shot faster because you see the server first... he will get shot when his computer gets the data that he's been shot.

It doesn't matter when bob gets the damage packet. In the PS1 server model a player dies when the servers says so (from what I can tell it doesn't block damage packets from the other player after death which is a bit odd). Clients literally send packets saying who they hit (CSHD) and the server subtracts health on the server-side. So it only matters what my latency is in regards to damage.

The only time when latency affects players with low latency is position updates from high latency players since movement is 100% client-side (thus the perceived lag from only high latency players) and damage since high latency players are allowed to shoot at previous positions of players making shooting easier since they get all position updates delayed.

Honestly anything is better than the PS1 system. If I was them I'd use an assumed latency model akin to Source's networking (which I've implemented previously). It's pretty much the best networking solution for client-server topologies. I digress since as Duke says it can get technical.

Elude · 2011-11-23, 01:27 PM

Of course players are going to warp! What multiplayer game do they not warp in?

All we can hope for is that it will be less than it was in Planetside 1.

Bags · 2011-11-23, 01:31 PM

You do realize the PS engine is over 8 years old, right?

... right?

SKYeXile · 2011-11-23, 04:28 PM

Originally Posted by Elude

Of course players are going to warp! What multiplayer game do they not warp in?

All we can hope for is that it will be less than it was in Planetside 1.

did you even read my post? ...every game that uses interpolation as their main source of animation....WHICH IS PRACTICALLY EVERY GAME THESE DAYS!

clinetside can sometimes be a messy thing, but a player will die when the server receives a packet that they have been killed...however, they can still damage you until the dead player receives the packet they're dead, how the server deals with that time lapse is upto the programming.

They will die on your screen when you get a packet from the server confirming the kill.

Ill tell you right now, any american video i watch is a hell of alot smoother than the shit you see through my screen, i dont have many videos online anymore, just afew random clips. I play with 200ping btw.

this is probably the best one..funny thing...its me killing hackers...good old clinetside.

DarkSkyes · 2011-11-24, 05:02 AM

That is not hacking, that's called dual coreing - When the new dual cores came out there was an exploit that allowed you to move much faster than normal. You will see the damage and ROF is the same as a normal troop he is just moving a lot faster. On his client he sees the game as normal speed that's why he was so easy to kill.

SKYeXile · 2011-11-24, 05:12 AM

Originally Posted by DarkSkyes

That is not hacking, that's called dual coreing - When the new dual cores came out there was an exploit that allowed you to move much faster than normal. You will see the damage and ROF is the same as a normal troop he is just moving a lot faster. On his client he sees the game as normal speed that's why he was so easy to kill.

hackers cheaters, blatant exploiters, whatever they're all the same, ban them all.

wait if you know what the difference is between hacking and duel coring wth are you asking about the net code?

Traak · 2011-11-24, 05:18 AM

Originally Posted by Sirisian

I played PS1 with a 33 ms latency to their servers and to gemini. Your claim is false. Also assuming there will always be lag is also false. A big reason for the client-side hit detection is to accomodate users with a high latency without penalizing them.

You didn't interpret what he said correctly.

He said having 43ms pings TO EACH OTHER.

Just because my ping to the server is 22ms, and yours is 22ms, doesn't mean that my ping to you is 22ms, or even 44ms. The HAL9000 or whatever their server is going to be has to process my movement and send it to you, after which your computer has to process it and lay it out on the screen.

DarkSkyes · 2011-11-24, 11:41 AM

Originally Posted by SKYeXile

hackers cheaters, blatant exploiters, whatever they're all the same, ban them all.

wait if you know what the difference is between hacking and duel coring wth are you asking about the net code?

I`m not asking about netcode, if you read my post i asked if the warping will play a part in planetside 2. I don’t know anything about netcode but i understand the concept of the current and past exploits. Exploiting is not really hacking - Exploits are simply using imbalances in the game to your advantage, not downloading actual hacks/cheats or modifying the code of the game. Warping i guess could be called an "exploit" as you are tricking the other player with your movement and hit detection.

Effective · 2011-11-25, 02:44 PM

No warping will not be in PS2.

Originally Posted by Effective

Here's how you fix warping. Planetside uses a form of clientside called extrapolation. Basically, walk forward for 5 seconds and stop. Bam, you just warped a little. You may not see it, and it may not be a lot. As your PC sends packets to the server, the server predicts where you're going to move to next. If you suddenly stop, the last packet before that received by the server will still have you moving forward, when the server receives the packet after you stopped, you'll warp back to that position. warping is just the server's inability to predict where your avatar should be at.

The solution? don't use extrapolation in PS2.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lag_%28...29#Client-side

Extrapolation will more then likely not be used in PS2, meaning that ADAD will not be a viable exploitable strategy.