So since VS will be the only ones getting Damage Degradation...

mefy · 2011-11-26, 02:36 AM

Well, this is just speculatory of course... however I am just trying to point out possible flaws in game mechanics that may lead to more serious balancing issues between empires.

One of the main advantages I much appreciated about the VS in PS1 was their effective range on most weapons exceeded the other empires, most notably the Lancer and Magrider. Lancer was really the only AV weapon that required any sort of skill, and had a moderate to hard learning curve on it... however once mastered to an extent it became a really nasty deterrent to vehicles and even aircraft if you knew what you were doing.

Magrider, well it was a sniper tank.... only when compared to the other two however. The COF issue sucked because in a tank duel you would have to get as much range on them as possible to have the upper hand, and the COF was pretty big past 200m. But regardless, still a good tank with good AV/AA capabilities.

Now looking at PS2, it seems that if we are the only empire to have damage degradation while the other two simply get damage drop or *arc* to their weapons/cannons, but will still presumably do full damage if they actually do hit their target at range.

First possible flaw: Once NC/TR master this effect to an extent, will their weapons become superior at range compared to the VS weapons, since the VS weapons will suffer from damage degradation no matter what, while TR/NC simply has to learn how much higher to aim at certain ranges?

This suggests that the VS will need to be within a certain range to do full damage, but if you ask me this kind of takes a new turn in the empires 'advantages' and seems more like an NC theme if you ask me, the guys who are supposed to be 'in your face' with the most armor and biggest guns for quick burst damage... seems appropriate for NC right? Will the VS still have a formidable range advantage at a certain distance where they will be able to do full damage and still be able to keep a good range on the enemy?

Second flaw: With Cone of Fire game mechanics, this will be a double blow to the VS with their 'effective range' issues... as mentioned earlier it was possible to keep a good range on enemy tanks in a Magrider, however the COF was rather large and it really wasn't a 'sniper tank' like most people claimed it to be, you basically had to just put the COF over the target and hope that 1/25 of the shots would finally hit it. Aircraft at range was a pain as well. With damage degradation AND COF issues, PLUS other empires simply having bullet drop on their weapons instead of damage degradation as well, I see a whole storm of crap that could happen in these type of situations... plus if the Mag is supposedly going to be gunned by the driver, and the Heavy Rail Beam being where the PPA used to be, meaning the driver will not be able to rotate the main gun at all... it sounds like it's going to be a real pain in the ass for Magrider drivers to compensate for damage degradation, COF and driving at the same time while hopefully keeping a decent range on other vehicles. *sigh*

I still think all tanks should require a driver and a gunner... why are we taking a more rambo, killwhore take again? Im confused

Also, why not just make the Heavy Rail Beam into a cannon and subject it to gravity as well? And for all you nerds out there, photons are also subject to gravity as well so dont tell me that 'beam weaponry' shouldn't have a bullet drop.... plus aren't the VS weapons simply kinetic darts being propelled by beams?

Anyways... time to speculate away again

Ailos · 2011-11-26, 02:43 AM

Photons don't have mass, so they are only subject to the bend in space time caused by gravity, which is several thousand orders of magnitude less than actual particle weaponry.

Also, I think the implication with most VS weapons is that they will have nowhere near as bad a cone of fire as us. Also, they mentioned the kickback effect being present - your aim being pushed up as a result of recoil, which I would imagine would also be much much smaller for you all.

Also, stop whining, you already have the scythe.

mefy · 2011-11-26, 02:49 AM

No one has any clue how any of the aircraft really work in game yet

I was directing this topic more towards tanks, where I see the most potential issue with this.

Death2All · 2011-11-26, 03:00 AM

Of course, it's far too early to speculate on how exactly the weapons behave. We've only been given a brief slice of information on how VS weapons work. We still have no idea what range damage begins to drop off.

Also, there's supposedly a lot of customization and talent trees this time around. Perhaps you could put attachments or spec into your Pulsar tree and increase your effective range or lesser the effects of damage degradation.

Again, too early to speculate, all we can do is wait or hope for a follow up from the devs who've been more than obliged to answer questions on the forums.

Brusi · 2011-11-26, 03:00 AM

I think the point is that its always going to be pretty hard to consistantly hit an arced weapon on moving targets versus a weapon that shoots right where you tell it too.

It might balance out just fine if you are hitting every shot at long range and your enemy is hitting ever 2nd or 3rd shot

mefy · 2011-11-26, 03:09 AM

Originally Posted by Brusi

I think the point is that its always going to be pretty hard to consistantly hit an arced weapon on moving targets versus a weapon that shoots right where you tell it too.

Not exactly with COF in place.

Raka Maru · 2011-11-26, 03:26 AM

What you are referring to is gravitational lensing. Photons will travel straight unless influenced by high mass the size of galaxies and to a very small extent the moon does this to light when seen in a total eclipse. In the range of our battlefields, this would be nothing.

I could see some special armor in the cash shop that could counter beam weapons at the expense of being weaker to projectiles, but that's another topic.

CutterJohn · 2011-11-26, 03:54 AM

Originally Posted by Ailos

Photons don't have mass, so they are only subject to the bend in space time caused by gravity, which is several thousand orders of magnitude less than actual particle weaponry.

Also, I think the implication with most VS weapons is that they will have nowhere near as bad a cone of fire as us. Also, they mentioned the kickback effect being present - your aim being pushed up as a result of recoil, which I would imagine would also be much much smaller for you all.

If you're going to try to use science to justify something, at least don't use bad science. Everything is affected exactly the same by gravity. Including energy. A beam of light is pulled down at 9.8 m/s^2. Its just going so damned fast you don't see it, since its 300,000 km away after a second.

So. Hitscan, and no drop, or no hitscan, and bullet drop.

dsi · 2011-11-26, 05:34 AM

Why would NC/TR ballistic weapons hit for full damage at all ranges? AFAIK we aren't fighting in a vacuum.

xSlideShow · 2011-11-26, 05:49 AM

I think it will be fine. We don't know anything about travel time of cannon fire or anything. If the Magrider's shots travel as quickly as they use to. And the other guns travel at about the same rate. Then I think we'll be fine, since it's going to be much harder to aim.

Either way though, it's still going to be a lot harder for the other tanks to aim than the mag anyway. So it doesn't matter. I really think people are just getting all worked up about this. Trust the devs. The mag is still going to have an advantage at range. No bullet drop is pretty big.

Although, I'm probably just flaming at this point... Cause I didn't read the post I just read the topic. Already tired of reading this same thing. I get it's a pretty big difference between the empires... but was everyone that excited to have bullet drop or something?!

SKYeXile · 2011-11-26, 05:59 AM

im sure projectile weapons will have damage degradation too, or that would just be silly every FPS has damage degradation at range...well every decent one.

anyway, lets leave the balance discussions for beta.

MadPenguin · 2011-11-26, 10:54 AM

Have they said all vanu weapons for infantry, tanks and air have damage degredation? On the last game some VS weapons like pulsar had damage degredation i thought, but not all of them did.

wildcat140679 · 2011-11-26, 11:14 AM

I understand what your saying and would agree with you would it be based on more accurate data.

Very little is known about weapon specific stats, for all we know VS there weapons are more accurate, less recoil and have a much higher bullet speed compensating for damage degradation.

I'll just be waiting for beta before I speculate any further about possible game balancing problems. When beta starts we have more accurate data to work with and to draw our conclusions from.

Khellendros · 2011-11-26, 11:21 AM

Originally Posted by mefy

Not exactly with COF in place.

Honestly, the PS1 mag was great at sniping, I was picking off snipers on top of mountains when I could only see their heads poking up over the edge. The CoF wasn't debilitating by any means, it was a very potent platform.

Xyntech · 2011-11-26, 11:31 AM

I'm not gonna worry too much about this until beta. These are easy stats to tweak, so since the devs seem really committed to getting this game right, it should be no problem to perfect it.