No Rifles for the HA class???

[Erendil]

This post of mine was getting buried and forgotten in the Dedicated LMG's thread from a couple weeks ago. But Higby's comments in that thread got me concerned enough that I can't seem to get it out of my mind so I thought I'd start a new thread on it. Here's the part of his post that has me worried:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Higby

Right now Heavy Assault don't have any options for long range weapons (except for some of the AV stuff, of course), we want them up in the front lines taking hits and dishing out damage, not playing ghetto-sniper-hulk-hybrid. Although, depending on where we end up with HA weapon variants, theres a chance that we might end up with something like that, still playing around with it tbh.

Based on the above comments it sounds like the Heavy Assault class may not be able to use rifles, which means the role of the rifleman might get delegated to the light armour classes only.

I gotta say that I'm really not happy about this possibility. IMO HA's should get access to at least some form of long range AI weapon, and the most sensible option is also the most common infantry weapon in modern warfare: the assault rifle.


Say you're a Heavy using an AV weapon. You'll want to attack enemy vehicles from longer range since their big and heavy and as a softie you'll tend to go squish if you get too close to the nassssty vehicles. But if they're smart, the enemy vehicles will have infantry with them for support. So does this mean that said AV user won't be able to carry a rifle as a backup weapon so he can return fire on the enemy troops supporting the tank? Or will he have to resort to pulling out a pistol?

This would make me an extremely sad panda since in PS1 I've usually played the role of the second-line fire-support soldier, using AV to ward off vehicles and then switching to ESMA to provide covering fire for my HA comrades on the front line and take potshots at enemy front-line soldiers when I can. Is the MA/AV loadout not going to be an option in PS2?

I really really hope that it still is since it's the loadout I've used for 90% of my PS1 career. It gives me the ability to engage a wide variety of targets at range at the expense of sacrificing a bit of AI power up close since I'm not carrying HA. So it's versatile, but not all-powerful, and I do make compromises in AI power when using it.



EDIT: I just want to add that the rifle (and the musket before it) has been the mainstay infantry weapon for soldiers for the last 500-600 years. If I understand Higby correctly, it sounds like they'll be denying the HA class access to this weapon type.

If so, I'm asking the Devs that they please reconsider this decision and let the HA class use rifles since it is so central to modern warfare, and it feels counter-intuitive for one of the best-armed infantry classes to be denied use of such a omnipresent weapon.


So what do you guys think? Should the HA class be allowed to use rifles? Along similar lines, should the HA class be allowed to carry two rifle-sized weapons at all?

[FIREk]

I'm pretty sure that Higby only meant that they won't have sniper rifles / marksman rifles. I think we can assume that assault rifles are medium-range weapons.

That being said, the anti-infantry HA class will definitely be limited to HA weapons - the Jackhammer, MCG and Lasher, and maybe others.

The anti-vehicle HA class will likely carry a missile launcher (or other AV weapon) plus an assault rifle or shotgun. Or perhaps only a carbine/shotgun.

[Atuday]

This worries me and I would like some clarification from higgs. The thought of not having a mid/long range attack power for a heavy seems silly. Their disadvantage is being slow. Not having any range makes it so they would only ever be effective in bases or VS tanks. The thought of having some form of really inaccurate MCG that still had range would balance this out.

[Erendil]

Originally Posted by FIREk

I'm pretty sure that Higby only meant that they won't have sniper rifles / marksman rifles. I think we can assume that assault rifles are medium-range weapons.

That being said, the anti-infantry HA class will definitely be limited to HA weapons - the Jackhammer, MCG and Lasher, and maybe others.

The anti-vehicle HA class will likely carry a missile launcher (or other AV weapon) plus an assault rifle or shotgun. Or perhaps only a carbine/shotgun.

I sure hope you're right. Not giving heavy infantry access to assault rifles just sounds so bass-ackwards....

[Traak]

Hasn't every HA we've seen so far been equipped with an assault rifle or pistol, with the exception of the one blurry shot of the MCG from first-person perspective?

It sounds like they have an inverse relationship between striking distance and armor. Further you can strike from (except AV) the less armor you have, at least in the non-MAX classes.

[Zulthus]

I have to say, from what I've heard THUS FAR, I'm really not sure I like the way they're taking the class system. I think they're restricting classes way too much. The freeform inventory in PS1 was perfect. Players should get to choose what armor they want to use with whatever weapons they want, and have the ability to stock their inventory to their liking. It feels like they're trying to go the Battlefield route, with these specific classes, squad spawning, etc. I truly wish they'd stay true to how the core game worked the first time around. Games these days are all the same. It's not that I'm afraid of change, it's the fact that 98% of games have the same exact shit. Choose your weapon, put an attachment, here's everything else done for you. I heard them say something about making it more accessible to the player, but the truth is, to 99% of people that play a game like this, making your own inventory is no challenge at all. As for EVERYONE, it took 5 minutes of getting used to, and we all had fun with it. But I don't like that they're making AV, HA, etc SPECIFIC classes. Like I said, you should be able to put HA and AV in the same loadout. Jumpjet troops should be able to use sniper rifles.

I am LOVING everything else about the new game so far though. I like that aircraft won't be flying cameras, I like that the new bases are much more massive, I like that we'll be fighting in all areas of the continent. The graphics look amazing and the art direction for all three factions is perfect. The only thing that has truly been bugging me since the start is their take on classes.

But, this is all probably false on my part, and as we say, we'll have to wait until Beta to find out how it really works...


I don't know if any of that made any sense, but it's late and I'm fucking tired.

[Erendil]

Originally Posted by Traak

Hasn't every HA we've seen so far been equipped with an assault rifle or pistol, with the exception of the one blurry shot of the MCG from first-person perspective?

It sounds like they have an inverse relationship between striking distance and armor. Further you can strike from (except AV) the less armor you have, at least in the non-MAX classes.

The only HA I recall ever seeing is this TR carrying a Striker. All the other screenies have shown light class/Agile varients AFAI can tell.

Something else that gives me pause... None of the screenies we've seen have shown anybody carrying more than one weapon. Not even a rifle + sidearm.

Originally Posted by Zulthus

I have to say, from what I've heard THUS FAR, I'm really not sure I like the way they're taking the class system. I think they're restricting classes way too much. The freeform inventory in PS1 was perfect. Players should get to choose what armor they want to use with whatever weapons they want, and have the ability to stock their inventory to their liking. It feels like they're trying to go the Battlefield route, with these specific classes, squad spawning, etc. I truly wish they'd stay true to how the core game worked the first time around. Games these days are all the same. It's not that I'm afraid of change, it's the fact that 98% of games have the same exact shit. Choose your weapon, put an attachment, here's everything else done for you. I heard them say something about making it more accessible to the player, but the truth is, to 99% of people that play a game like this, making your own inventory is no challenge at all. As for EVERYONE, it took 5 minutes of getting used to, and we all had fun with it. But I don't like that they're making AV, HA, etc SPECIFIC classes. Like I said, you should be able to put HA and AV in the same loadout. Jumpjet troops should be able to use sniper rifles.

I am LOVING everything else about the new game so far though. I like that aircraft won't be flying cameras, I like that the new bases are much more massive, I like that we'll be fighting in all areas of the continent. The graphics look amazing and the art direction for all three factions is perfect. The only thing that has truly been bugging me since the start is their take on classes.

But, this is all probably false on my part, and as we say, we'll have to wait until Beta to find out how it really works...


I don't know if any of that made any sense, but it's late and I'm fucking tired.

No, I hear ya. The vast majority of changes and additions they're making to PS2 I absolutely love. However, in regards to the class system, a lot of us are concerned that they might make them a little too restrictive. I'm afraid that they might be using it to force too much reliance on your teammates in order too succeed and hide it under the guise of "teamwork."

I mean, they did have a point. The HA/AV/Adv Med/Assault Engie/Expert Hacker/CR5 template that 95% of the PS1 playerbase turned into was too versatile. but I get the distinct impression that they're taking things too far in the other direction, making everybody too specialized.

Obviously we don't know even a tiny fraction of the certs/capaibilities that are being added to the game for infantry. But the proverbial examples of "too versatile" that have be light-heartedly given (Medics with Rocket launchers, Jump troops w/ HA, cloakers who rez) I have no issues with whatsoever and don't seem them at all OP'd. Quite frankly given what we know now I can't think of a 2 or 3 cert combo that I'd find OP'd at all. At least not anything that couldn't be solved by armour restrictions (like no cloaking HA for example)

[SKYeXile]

Yea he said long range weapons, i would have never considered MA long range, but iv been wrong in the past. i think what firek is saying is correct. I have tried to track down where its written but im very sure higby said that heavy assault AI is limited to AI only while the AV or SA users would also get a less powerful AI weapon.

[CrystalViolet]

IDK, this choice makes perfect sense to me for balance reasons given the faster TTK. If you go into PS2 thinking you're going to play the game in the exact same way you played PS1, I think you are just setting yourself up for disapointment. There will be many ways to play the game.

[NCLynx]

Personally I think every empire should get something with the range of the gauss and the power of a jackhammer triple shot in every bullet. No damage degradation, no bullet drop.

I'm find with HA not having something that's good at super long range.

[Raymac]

HA in PS1 wasn't long range. I don't see the problem.

[Zulthus]

Originally Posted by Raymac

HA in PS1 wasn't long range. I don't see the problem.

All you gotta do is read. He's talking about the HA class using rifles. It's in the title.

[Erendil]

Originally Posted by SKYeXile

Yea he said long range weapons, i would have never considered MA long range, but iv been wrong in the past. i think what firek is saying is correct. I have tried to track down where its written but im very sure higby said that heavy assault AI is limited to AI only while the AV or SA users would also get a less powerful AI weapon.

Yeah, "long range" is a very vague term. I personally consider assault rifles to be "long range." In the Army I was trained to hit a man-sized target at 400m with an M16A2, and its offical max effective range is 550m.. Since the Devs are emphasizing more "realism" in PS2 it's possible that the most accurate varient of MA (an MA long-rifle) could hit targets out that far. If so, I'd consider that long range.

However the stock MA rifle models in PS2 seem to be closer to the M4A1 in barrel length and overall size, in which case 300-350m is closer to the max effective range officially it's 500m). That'd be closer to medium range.

Originally Posted by Zulthus

All you gotta do is read. He's talking about the HA class using rifles. It's in the title.

Exactly. Or, to put it into PS1 terms, I want to know if 1) someone wearing Rexo is able to carry one "specialized" weapon (Thumper/HA/AV) and still carry a rifle as a backup, 2) if Rexo's can carry 2 rifle-sized weapons at the same time at all (like MA+AV), and 3) if Rexo's can carry rifles at all.

I suppose hand-in-hand with that would be to ask if any class beside that which we call "Heavy Assault" is able to wear Rexo...

[LongBow]

I have to admit the notion does intrigue me and in honesty, I'm not totally against HA being unable to use assault rifles.

such would have to come at the expense of a better defined and better optimised HA class.
Another factor to consider is that LA are going to be more limited in the "offensive" use of their jump pack because at closer ranges we know a HA player is going to tear them to shreds! so is the LA just a sniper?



however at the end of the day, Higby was directly addressing the "hulk sniper" (I like that ;P)and I do hope that the days of HA having access to "sniper range" weapons are a thing of the past.

whether this applies to the "medium range" assault rifle I doubt it ... though limited access to modules like "extended barrel" is a real possibly and an option I hope the devs consider.

[SKYeXile]

Originally Posted by Erendil

Exactly. Or, to put it into PS1 terms, I want to know if 1) someone wearing Rexo is able to carry one "specialized" weapon (Thumper/HA/AV) and still carry a rifle as a backup, 2) if Rexo's can carry 2 rifle-sized weapons at the same time at all (like MA+AV), and 3) if Rexo's can carry rifles at all.

I suppose hand-in-hand with that would be to ask if any class beside that which we call "Heavy Assault" is able to wear Rexo...

I'm positive higby said that AV and SA rexo users would be able to use a rifle, but not a heavy weapon.

This games classes are sounding alot like global agenda and going down the typical MMO archtype lines:

Cloakers as infiltrators and snipers.
Medics armed with carbines and small arms
assault heavy armoured and armed with AV and close range AI steaming weapons.
and the engineer laying deployable's.

for the love of god dont turn this into a homo holy trinity shooter where dudes run around with medic beams jammed up their ass.

and if you do...Please head to future-crew.net and apply to be a dedicated SKYeXile pocket healer.