Making Snipers useful.

VioletZero · 2012-01-31, 04:26 PM

The kill-cam thread got me thinking about the current state of Snipers.

Notably, how useless they are.

There are two things that a Sniper is good at currently. One is harassment. Which, to be honest, is only useful in a handful of niche situations. And the other is spotting. Which can be done just as well by anyone with a pair of binoculars.

So what can be done to make a Sniper rifle more useful?

My idea was to give them a variety of darts that serve different effects. Like, for example, a dart that emits a small radar pulse that is undetectable by the enemy(So they won't know what is happening) but everyone around the person who got shot by the dart will have their positions given away. This would last a short period of time.

How would you make them better?

Lonehunter · 2012-01-31, 04:39 PM

I just want to point out it won't take much effort to make Sniping better. The PS1 Sniping mechanic could probably go down in the Hall of Fame for worst game mechanic. As long as the accuracy/cone of fire doesn't bloom from looking left/right it will be a huge improvement. If done right, this game could be a Sniper's wet dream with the massive amount of terrain to choose from.

DviddLeff · 2012-01-31, 05:06 PM

Snipers need to be decent at slowing down infantry squads as they advance outdoors.

As long as their guns do the job they are fine.

Tool · 2012-01-31, 06:08 PM

I feel the stigma snipers gain in video games is due to the disconnect from the effectiveness snipers have in real life compared to the virtual world. This stems from the lack of self preservation in video games.

Sure, players will do what they can to prolong their life; there isnt that same sense of possible death and the fear it causes in real situations. A sniper is an instrument of fear and suppression. Capturing that in a game is something yet accomplished.

As they are in games, long range weapons are just another tool for killing. Without the physchological aspect.

How to change this? Its hard to come up tangible solutions that dont make gameplay suffer as a result. Suppresion mechanics have been attempted, latest example being Battlefield 3. It works to an extent and rewards players for doing it.

Unless morale, fear and self preservation play a role in the games combat, I dont snipers will be able to fill their intended role other than recon work.

VioletZero · 2012-01-31, 06:35 PM

It is for that reason that I've honestly been considering that Sniper Rifles shouldn't be included in the game.

At least not the commonly portrayed bolt action headshotting type. A long range assault rifle has possibilities to be a good addition, but not for a cloaker.

If you ask me, I say that cloakers should be a close range class. Not long range.

Geist · 2012-01-31, 06:48 PM

Originally Posted by VioletZero

The kill-cam thread got me thinking about the current state of Snipers.

Notably, how useless they are.

There are two things that a Sniper is good at currently. One is harassment. Which, to be honest, is only useful in a handful of niche situations. And the other is spotting. Which can be done just as well by anyone with a pair of binoculars.

So what can be done to make a Sniper rifle more useful?

My idea was to give them a variety of darts that serve different effects. Like, for example, a dart that emits a small radar pulse that is undetectable by the enemy(So they won't know what is happening) but everyone around the person who got shot by the dart will have their positions given away. This would last a short period of time.

How would you make them better?

Kind of reminds of the recon class from BC2. I don't know about anyone else, but I found those motion trackers that I could throw were insanely useful on the battlefield.

Allow the sniper to do his job as a reconnaissance gatherer and that will make snipers a valuable asset. It doesn't matter if it's RL or a Virtual world, intelligence is vital to winning any battle. This could be accomplished by simply giving him some radar gadgets and a spotting ability, letting him "spot" troops, vehicles, and even minds/turrets for the rest of his team.

Vancha · 2012-01-31, 06:56 PM

It needs to be things they can do from a distance, so it's pretty much just targeting, intel and communication roles.

Targeting: Pretty easy to add things here. Let snipers show people up on radar if they target/shoot them (this includes your dart idea), also something like a markerlight could probably be added. Let people see/detect things in the dark, allow allied AV to lock on to targets etc.

Intel & Communication: Countless or zero possibilities, depending on what's in the game (look up the wikipedia page on Military Intelligence and go to "See also". They should give you a few ideas.)

Originally Posted by Lonehunter

I just want to point out it won't take much effort to make Sniping better. The PS1 Sniping mechanic could probably go down in the Hall of Fame for worst game mechanic. As long as the accuracy/cone of fire doesn't bloom from looking left/right it will be a huge improvement. If done right, this game could be a Sniper's wet dream with the massive amount of terrain to choose from.

Mostly you hear how good PS1's sniping mechanic was. Without the bloom, it would have been way, way too easy to hit people.

Now I don't expect the same thing to be in PS2, but it needs to be just as hard otherwise anyone half decent at it would be ridiculously overpowered (and it sounds like it will be, with bullet drop, wind resistance and leading).

Originally Posted by VioletZero

There are two things that a Sniper is good at currently. One is harassment. Which, to be honest, is only useful in a handful of niche situations. And the other is spotting. Which can be done just as well by anyone with a pair of binoculars.

Where do you getting this from? Assuming they were decent, snipers were good at area denial, "reducing the enemy presence" and being able to hit important targets (the guy lancering your team's AMS, for example).

Edit:

Originally Posted by VioletZero

It is for that reason that I've honestly been considering that Sniper Rifles shouldn't be included in the game.

At least not the commonly portrayed bolt action headshotting type. A long range assault rifle has possibilities to be a good addition, but not for a cloaker.

If you ask me, I say that cloakers should be a close range class. Not long range.

Wow. You're coming to a lot of conclusions for a game you've never played.

VioletZero · 2012-01-31, 07:07 PM

I'm mostly talking about FPS games in general, not just Planetside.

You mentioned in the other thread about hunting and being patient.

That's precisely WHY Snipers are generally useless. Because all of that time you spend being "Patient" could be better spent doing something more helpful to your team.

Area denial is better done by support classes.

Reducing enemy presence is done better by an assault class.

Vancha · 2012-01-31, 07:26 PM

Originally Posted by VioletZero

I'm mostly talking about FPS games in general, not just Planetside.

You can't apply the same reasoning here. It doesn't work. The dynamics are too different.

Originally Posted by VioletZero

You mentioned in the other thread about hunting and being patient.

That's precisely WHY Snipers are generally useless. Because all of that time you spend being "Patient" could be better spent doing something more helpful to your team.

I didn't mean I'd sit there for hours doing nothing! It just wasn't a case of shooting whoever you could see the second they came into view.

Again you're talking about something you know nothing about. Like infiltrators, snipers have access to targets that no one else does. Snipers can take out targets in the courtyard of a base when everyone else can't even approach the walls without dying.

Originally Posted by VioletZero

Area denial is better done by support classes.

At close range maybe, but they won't be denying the enemy their roof when their allies have yet to breach the base shields.

Originally Posted by VioletZero

Reducing enemy presence is done better by an assault class.

With that reasoning, you could remove more than just the sniper.

VioletZero · 2012-01-31, 07:33 PM

They need a more general purpose than something that they can only take advantage of once in a great while.

The problem is that the time:gain ratio that snipers have is just too small for people to reasonably pick.

That's why I say to increase their recon and intelligence gathering capabilities. Sniping could be a side job while their main one would be getting info for their team. This would give them something that they can consistently do.

Atheosim · 2012-01-31, 07:44 PM

So taking out snipers from the game because you don't have fun doing it is a good idea how?

Graywolves · 2012-01-31, 07:45 PM

Sniping does area denial well enough and more effective than other classes because other classes are too close and committed to fighting. They lack the life expectancy of sniper's to actually deny an area (and are generally prone to being flanked). I actually don't see how anything else would do area denial properly. It's not area denial if you can move into said area and engage the enemy.

Snipers provide intel through surveillance as well as suppression.

You can't make it "more useful." In smaller games Snipers are just people racking up kills. They have more to do.

The only time snipers become inefficient because they aren't doing something else is if too many people are trying to snipe. On a game this scale this isn't as much of a problem, especially with cloakers and reavers hunting them.

tl;dr - I guess you could let them tag targets. But it's a playstyle and is useful in its own way. Snipers don't need to be catered to.

Vancha · 2012-01-31, 07:51 PM

Originally Posted by VioletZero

They need a more general purpose than something that they can only take advantage of once in a great while.

The problem is that the time:gain ratio that snipers have is just too small for people to reasonably pick.

That's why I say to increase their recon and intelligence gathering capabilities. Sniping could be a side job while their main one would be getting info for their team.

I don't have a problem with snipers being given more to do, it just amazes me that you can claim these things for a game you've never played. I sniped in Planetside. That's what I did. To have someone who's never played it tell me my role of choice "could be a side job"...The gall of it just blows my mind.

You have no idea what impact snipers made in Planetside (or any role, for that matter), you have no idea what their "time:gain" ratio was (I don't even know how you'd calculate that), you haven't experienced their strengths or their weaknesses from any perspective (the sniper, the sniped or the sniper killer).

It's like if I'd only ever played Call of Duty and tried telling Quake pros what the shotguns should be like in the next Quake arena game because I was good with the SPAS in MW3...

Tool · 2012-01-31, 07:54 PM

I guess if there were less ways to determine enemy positions than in Ps1, snipers could prove more useful. Gathering intelligence through visual means only and having to relay that information verbally or on the tactical map.

While you could do this in Ps1, it was usually unecessary with abundant radars, detection methods, and lack of concealment.

VioletZero · 2012-01-31, 07:55 PM

I find it difficult to believe that you were more productive as a Sniper than someone who was repairing a critical vehicle or assisting a critical push.

You seem to assume that I've only played one FPS.

No, this applies to EVERY FPS I'VE EVER PLAYED. Sniping was simply useless in the grand scheme of things. Even in larger games like Battlefield.