Vehicle capacity / unit structure - Galaxy.

Grognard · 2012-02-06, 06:59 PM

Premise:
1. We have two basic transports; Galaxy (12) and Sunderer (12)
2. We have two basic unit structures; Platoon (30) and Squad (10)

Do you already see where I am going with this?

The Sunderer handles the squad easily, and since it is a ground-bound vehicle, can accomodate two on-the-way stragglers also. Makes sense...

The Galaxy? WTF? This big-ass monster can only hold 12 troops... and maybe two lesure-time quads... Sure, its a spawn site once deployed, but it may not be used that way, it might be used to drop into a hot LZ... Yeah, 12 troops into our new game with battles of how many again? This is flawed.

I propose the Galaxy hold 30. Simple. Does not need extra, no stragglers in the sky, so an even 30 (a platoon) is logical. If you are designing a Galaxy as a transport, design it to do what it needs to do. Unit integrity, build-in.

How am I wrong?

Sirisian · 2012-02-06, 07:06 PM

Originally Posted by Grognard

How am I wrong?

Escorts. Tanks/Liberators/Fighters. Shoving everyone into one vehicle makes for boring gameplay.

Grognard · 2012-02-06, 07:08 PM

Originally Posted by Sirisian

Escorts. Tanks/Liberators/Fighters. Shoving everyone into one vehicle makes for boring gameplay.

Seriously, 30 folks is equivalent to everyone? Escorts dont work on hot drops... cept for air.

Ok then, point taken...

Figment · 2012-02-06, 07:08 PM

Putting 30 troops in a single unit would make that unit one big juicy target. It would thus require loads of armour.

But you don't always put 30 troops in one Galaxy, which means you got the armour of 30 for a crew of... what, 5? --> OP vehicle in numbers.

It also would mean you all drop in the exact same spot, or the enemy only has to follow the path of one Galaxy to see where you dropped. That means outfits would naturally start using multiple to spread their chances.

On top of that, since the Galaxy only has four guns, with 25 passengers, one pilot and four gunners, 25 players would not do anything. Any outfit and squad would opt to have each player amount to some armour and firepower. Thus they'd bring multiple units, again.

So limiting the amount of troops you can carry makes sense as nobody would put everyone in one Galaxy. Remember, in PS1, Galaxies held a similar number (depending on how many in the vehicle in the back) and people easily brought two, three and sometimes more to a single fight if they could afford the certification.

Grognard · 2012-02-06, 07:22 PM

Replying to myself... not to anyone in particular...

I have accepted the paradigm that PS2 will far exceed the player count of PS1, so I expect that operations will likewise need to be upscaled to fit.

Transportational logistics will be out of whack if they fall behind, or are designed with underscale. Its been mentioned that Galaxies are not a dime a dozen, so to me, the capacity is the governing factor on making a logical correlation to its purpose.

I believe the Galaxys capacity is underscaled to its purpose, currently.

Saintlycow · 2012-02-06, 07:28 PM

While I think that you are off on your estimates, i do believe that a galaxy should have more capacity.

If a galaxy has 4 guns, as stated above, it takes 5 to crew one. that leaves 7 people to drop if you want to continue to have defenses on the galaxy

Boost it to 15.

This way, you can fit a platoon into 2 galaxies. 1 squad operates the galaxies, and 2 squads are droppers.

It gives more options. Although the way it works now, you have space for 6 guys to be fighter escorts. Which is a tad too much. A platoon is going to take 2 fully armed gals with 6 escorts and only commit 14 troops to the field without sacrificing guns. 3 at the most, as at 4+ you simply have too many gals to operate and defend to put out a decent attack

Grognard · 2012-02-06, 07:31 PM

Originally Posted by Saintlycow

While I think that you are off on your estimates, i do believe that a galaxy should have more capacity.

If a galaxy has 4 guns, as stated above, it takes 5 to crew one. that leaves 7 people to drop if you want to continue to have defenses on the galaxy

Boost it to 15.

This way, you can fit a platoon into 2 galaxies. 1 squad operates the galaxies, and 2 squads are droppers.

It gives more options. Although the way it works now, you have space for 6 guys to be fighter escorts. Which is a tad too much. A platoon is going to take 2 fully armed gals with 6 escorts and only commit 14 troops to the field without sacrificing guns. 3 at the most, as at 4+ you simply have too many gals to operate and defend to put out a decent attack

I could get behind this, there is logic I can follow here...

Ailos · 2012-02-06, 07:43 PM

Platoons are now 4 squads, btw.

Having the galaxy hold 12 is OK, imo. The way I look at it, you have the pilot+the tail gunner are bound to the galaxy. Assuming that behemoth takes resources to spawn, I imagine in most situations, you wouldn't be interested in simply dumping it at the end of your mission. The tailgunner and the pilot would be the skeleton crew, with the other guns being manned by passengers to ward off any scythe pilots keen to score a 12-kill hit. So that brings down the practical number of occupants to 10.

If you have a platoon of 40, you can have 3 squads of grunts (30 soldiers), so to transport them around you need 3 manned gals (6 people). That leaves you with 4 cavalry pilots as additional escort/ground clearing. Comm-wise, the pilots and the three tailgunners would be in a TS channel separate from the grunt platoon. I see that as a much more viable unit than The 30-man galaxy.

EDIT: Saintly cow's suggestion is another option, although I still don't think that everyone inside the galaxies is a good way to operate a sustainable and mobile assault operation.

Grognard · 2012-02-06, 08:06 PM

Originally Posted by Ailos

Platoons are now 4 squads, btw.

Having the galaxy hold 12 is OK, imo. The way I look at it, you have the pilot+the tail gunner are bound to the galaxy. Assuming that behemoth takes resources to spawn, I imagine in most situations, you wouldn't be interested in simply dumping it at the end of your mission. The tailgunner and the pilot would be the skeleton crew, with the other guns being manned by passengers to ward off any scythe pilots keen to score a 12-kill hit. So that brings down the practical number of occupants to 10.

If you have a platoon of 40, you can have 3 squads of grunts (30 soldiers), so to transport them around you need 3 manned gals (6 people). That leaves you with 4 cavalry pilots as additional escort/ground clearing. Comm-wise, the pilots and the three tailgunners would be in a TS channel separate from the grunt platoon. I see that as a much more viable unit than The 30-man galaxy.

4 Squads to a Platoon? I was not aware of that, and it certainly shakes my premise. Perhaps someone can continue to help me work this out? Thats why I bring things up, to learn, and hopefully get some brainstorming going for possible flaws.

I still think 12 is too low. From what I understand Galaxies will not be easy to come by, so capacity is all there is design-wise to make it a viable transport. I just cant see 12 troops, or even 24 troops surviving long in a local zerg of 250. The aircav escort will get cleared because its enemy territory, and they sky will be full of ackack, so you'd be down that asset, and 12 guys is seconds TTK, or at very least pinned beyond hope, then the Galaxy gets overrun ASAP.

Someone is going to say, "take 12 and flank 'em!", and to that my eyes will dirisively roll, because I am talking sustainable bridgehead, not a sideshow distraction.

Simply need more numbers to make a bridgehead, in my opinion.

Edit: Push changed to Bridgehead, for clarity.

Ailos · 2012-02-06, 08:41 PM

Yeah, but that is precisely why I think that you're better off with 3 galaxies of 12 than 1 galaxy of 30. You'll get 12 guns (rather than 4) to fight off enemy aircav and clear some ground, besides your escorts.

Also, since the classes are now a little more restrictive in terms of their equipment, that means the pilot won't be a particularly effective grunt, and won't add much value to the squad (especially since he'll probably have to an engineer, and engineers can't do much in the way of supporting infantry, who need medics). So in the scheme of the things that I described, all pilots and tailgunners would be engineers while the grunts would be mixes of HA, medics, and MAXes. (Then again, maybe MAXes will need engineers to keep them going...)

Plus, with 3 gals, you'll have 30 people dropping, not just 10. 30 vs 250 isn't that bad of a fight - that's only around nine kills/person - something that's not very hard to achieve against the zerg, especially if you're using the right formation and tactics, and a good balance of guns vs. mobility.

DayOne · 2012-02-06, 08:53 PM

Then bring in the side-grades! You could go either way with the new customisation system. Just you and your four mates could pilot a fully armed Gal with a ton of ammo, but not much space.

OR, you could ditch the weapons and get 20 spaces for passengers.

The customisation in this game could make vehicles truly multi-role

Grognard · 2012-02-06, 09:03 PM

Originally Posted by Ailos

Yeah, but that is precisely why I think that you're better off with 3 galaxies of 12 than 1 galaxy of 30. You'll get 12 guns (rather than 4) to fight off enemy aircav and clear some ground, besides your escorts.

Sensible.

Originally Posted by Ailos

Also, since the classes are now a little more restrictive in terms of their equipment, that means the pilot won't be a particularly effective grunt, and won't add much value to the squad (especially since he'll probably have to an engineer, and engineers can't do much in the way of supporting infantry, who need medics). So in the scheme of the things that I described, all pilots and tailgunners would be engineers while the grunts would be mixes of HA, medics, and MAXes. (Then again, maybe MAXes will need engineers to keep them going...)

Ok, I get it. This is where I start to have my concerns though.

It just seems like the primary dropping platoon supports the Galaxies, rather than the other way around, cause such a big % of them need to stay back and babysit it, instead of carry on the business of the mission. The Galaxy supplants the mission due to its high maintenance in personnel.

Originally Posted by Ailos

Plus, with 3 gals, you'll have 30 people dropping, not just 10. 30 vs 250 isn't that bad of a fight - that's only around nine kills/person - something that's not very hard to achieve against the zerg, especially if you're using the right formation and tactics, and a good balance of guns vs. mobility.

I wonder how many resourses will be necessary for each Galaxy to roll 12 troops, 2-5 of which need to babysit it, since my guess is that it is too valuable to risk loss (lol, in game terms...). Then 7 (if you gun it) get to go to work on the mission, 7... plus the zerg, once they mobilize...

I guess Im the only one that thinks these numbers are significantly inadequate, but thats ok, its not all about my opinion, so no big deal.

Grognard · 2012-02-06, 09:06 PM

Originally Posted by DayOne

Then bring in the side-grades! You could go either way with the new customisation system. Just you and your four mates could pilot a fully armed Gal with a ton of ammo, but not much space.

OR, you could ditch the weapons and get 20 spaces for passengers.

The customisation in this game could make vehicles truly multi-role

That would be 100% ok with me. Very fine idea.

Saintlycow · 2012-02-06, 09:06 PM

Originally Posted by Ailos

Platoons are now 4 squads, btw.

Having the galaxy hold 12 is OK, imo. The way I look at it, you have the pilot+the tail gunner are bound to the galaxy. Assuming that behemoth takes resources to spawn, I imagine in most situations, you wouldn't be interested in simply dumping it at the end of your mission. The tailgunner and the pilot would be the skeleton crew, with the other guns being manned by passengers to ward off any scythe pilots keen to score a 12-kill hit. So that brings down the practical number of occupants to 10.

If you have a platoon of 40, you can have 3 squads of grunts (30 soldiers), so to transport them around you need 3 manned gals (6 people). That leaves you with 4 cavalry pilots as additional escort/ground clearing. Comm-wise, the pilots and the three tailgunners would be in a TS channel separate from the grunt platoon. I see that as a much more viable unit than The 30-man galaxy.

EDIT: Saintly cow's suggestion is another option, although I still don't think that everyone inside the galaxies is a good way to operate a sustainable and mobile assault operation.

That changes the game completely. Too bad I have to study for chem, otherwise I would think it out again.

My idea was really based on the fact that the passengers would bail out, and the gal would fly back to base. If you wanted to create mobile spawns, you could still do it. All that would change is that some gunners would jump out of the deployed galaxies and cover it, while those with the best gun arcs (aa guns and outward facing guns for tanks) would stay in and blast enemies.

Ailos · 2012-02-06, 10:17 PM

Originally Posted by Saintlycow

That changes the game completely. Too bad I have to study for chem, otherwise I would think it out again.

My idea was really based on the fact that the passengers would bail out, and the gal would fly back to base. If you wanted to create mobile spawns, you could still do it. All that would change is that some gunners would jump out of the deployed galaxies and cover it, while those with the best gun arcs (aa guns and outward facing guns for tanks) would stay in and blast enemies.

That's more along the lines of what I was thinking: the Galaxy as a troop transport doesn't ever land, it's always airborne and always moving. If it lands anywhere, it lands at a base or near another friendly respawn facility where the engineer-pilots set up some beefier defenses (duh!). Or another strategy would be to not land until the last medic on the assaulting team is dead (meaning there's no chance of them coming back in the field). That way you stay on the ground long enough to allow everyone to get back on board, and launch another assault.