Concerns over outfit specializations

Pollo Jack · 2012-04-17, 10:47 AM

It sounds good that each outfit will be able to specialize but even back in PS days outfits had a week of using their opposite. Like a normally Vanguard outfit would switch to all out aircraft and vice versa.

A simple solution for this would be to allow day timer respecs for outfits.

Another issue, a primarily ground outfit might have a galaxy driver. Would it be acceptable to encourage staying in their specialization discouraging pulling a galaxy for the entire outfit?

This also depends on how strong the benefits will be. I personally wouldn't mind the benefits being very minor, nothing that affects speed nor damage.

Figment · 2012-04-17, 10:57 AM

I'd presume outfits can be reset. However, it's also quite likely that outfits will create multiple outfits with new characters and a different specialisation. Like in PS1 a lot of outfits would create new characters for these special events.

I'd personally say outfits that want to be known for something, should accept they don't get bonuses in other areas. Thus these outfit perks should have a very long, probably monthly reset timer at most, IMO.

Besides, they can still just use whatever and NOT get a bonus. Why should they get a bonus for giggle-events?

Xyntech · 2012-04-17, 10:58 AM

Specializing even ones own character isn't supposed to give much advantage in a fight. It's mostly supposed to be about playstyle and that sort of thing.

So I would imagine an outfit specialized in tanks won't have any problems flying aircraft or having a Gal pilot. They just won't receive any noteworthy benefits.

I would assume that outfits specialized in tanks will get things like slightly reduced cost of pulling tanks, reduced cost of tank and tank turret sidegrades, maybe even reduced cert cost for tank certs, or a free cert or two in tanking for each member.

I highly doubt there will be a plus 10% damage option or a tank outfit exclusive main gun or turret or piece of equipment or anything like that.

I do support the idea of something like a bonus reset on a monthly timer, for outfits that want to restructure into a completely new direction or if they are unhappy with a past leaders decision or something. But it certainly shouldn't be the kind of thing used for "aircav night" or something like that. It should never be bonuses that make it that big a deal in the first place. No reason why someone in an outfit should be able to outgun someone running solo just because they are in an outfit.

Sledgecrushr · 2012-04-17, 11:09 AM

I saw above a discussion about outfits specializing in tanks. Thing is a tank division has to be supported by mechanised infantry and a certain amout of air support to cover its own weaknesses in combat. I believe outfit specialization will lead to a lot of great alliances between outfits that compliment each other.

Marinealver · 2012-04-17, 11:10 AM

If they have say a higher echelon of outfits such as Alliances then I can see the specialization not being that much of a restriction. If you want to try something else but stay with friends all you have to do is transfer to an allied outfit.

Military organizations and pretty much any large organizational body has different echelons or levels of responsibility that forms sort of a pyramid. Usually at the top of the pyramid there is a CEO or chairman, but there is also a board which holds equal level of responsibility but there is a chain to avoid the pains of micro management. Some even have two, I know many military organizations especially joint commands that there are TWO Chains of Command, an Administrative and an operational.

Example of an Operational Chain of Command, Squad/Platoon/Task Force/Empire.
Example of an Administrative Chain of Command, Squad/Outfit/Alliance/Empire.

The Operational is the Now as what is going on and who is doing what while the Administrative is the persistent which is who's online or what do we specalize in.

kaffis · 2012-04-17, 12:01 PM

There was talk about ways to make different divisions within an outfit that could each have their own specialization set, or a way to create alliances of outfits so that you could do essentially the same thing by allying your tank division with your air division.

So long as the tools are robust enough to allow good communication and seeing who's online, etc., between divisions/allied outfits, that solution is fine to me.

Bittermen · 2012-04-17, 12:42 PM

I believe this encourages outfits to seek help from other outfits.

Raymac · 2012-04-17, 12:46 PM

This is something I've thought a bit about too. If the idea is to make outfits spealized in something, then it will add a level of complexity when you try to bring a major combined arms offensive. I would really like to see outfit alliances and a mechanism for them to organize easily.

Redshift · 2012-04-17, 12:53 PM

Originally Posted by Raymac

This is something I've thought a bit about too. If the idea is to make outfits spealized in something, then it will add a level of complexity when you try to bring a major combined arms offensive. I would really like to see outfit alliances and a mechanism for them to organize easily.

Except ./comall will be full of "11 infantry LF gal pilot"

If it makes any actual difference we're going to end up having to roll multiple characters for multiple outfits each

Pollo Jack · 2012-04-17, 12:58 PM

Yeah, my poorly worded concern is having to roll multiple characters for each outfit.

Having an outfit known is cool and all but you sacrifice personal identity.

Encouraging alliances does sound nice though.

I also think the timer for a reset should be a week max. Too long and it discourages trying new strategies.

kertvon · 2012-04-17, 02:22 PM

I definitely see it encouraging outfit alliances as has been said, which sounds amazing. I wonder just how far the benefits reach per vehicle/infantry type. If you have an all air outfit, it would make sense that air vehicles get perks, but if you have a tank outfit, would engineers get perks are do really need engineers from another outfit. I would imagine the complexities of an infantry outfit would be interesting to balanceeven more so. Maybe the system gives you an option of a number of perks you can choose so you can enable what you want?

kaffis · 2012-04-17, 02:30 PM

Originally Posted by kertvon

if you have a tank outfit, would engineers get perks are do really need engineers from another outfit. I would imagine the complexities of an infantry outfit would be interesting to balanceeven more so. Maybe the system gives you an option of a number of perks you can choose so you can enable what you want?

Yeah, everything that's been said has suggested to me that you get to choose lots of perks (as your outfit earns "experience"?) granularly, rather than just selecting a "set" of perks from a small list.

So if your tank-centric outfit wants to give engineer benefits, as they think that having well-armed engineers helps their tank column's performance, they should be able to.

RNFB · 2012-04-18, 02:25 AM

Outfit perks are a terrible idea. It penalizes players that like to dabble in every class/vehicle role because they're not going to have optimal TTKs in the roles that their outfit didn't choose.

Outfits should remain as a tool for organization, not a place to grab another "+5% to whatever". If an outfit wants to be known for being a badass tank outfit, then they will do so by being skilled tank people, not because their tanks have bonuses other tanks don't have.

CutterJohn · 2012-04-18, 04:05 AM

Originally Posted by RNFB

Outfit perks are a terrible idea. It penalizes players that like to dabble in every class/vehicle role because they're not going to have optimal TTKs in the roles that their outfit didn't choose.

Outfits should remain as a tool for organization, not a place to grab another "+5% to whatever". If an outfit wants to be known for being a badass tank outfit, then they will do so by being skilled tank people, not because their tanks have bonuses other tanks don't have.

I have to tend to agree with this sentiment. Outfits already have the advantage of teamwork and coordination, and simply having a solid group of players to play with. I don't see why they need special tools on top of this as well. If its just some toy that the average person won't want or need, like an outfit base or something, sure, have at it. But I don't get why they deserve access to something non outfitted people can never get access to.

Its like group buffs in an RPG mmo... Pointless. The cooperation and coordination is already going to make the group more powerful and efficient than the sum of its parts. Bonuses on top of that are just stacking the deck.

Or, more simply, if teamwork is not its own reward, then something is wrong.

Warborn · 2012-04-18, 04:25 AM

There's a thread in the Ideas forum where psychobilly suggests outfits be divided into "divisions", with each division being able to take advantage of a particular specialization tree. He, correctly in my opinion, asserts that either the specializations will need to amount to nothing, or outfits may find themselves compelled to split into several outfits, each devoted to a different style of gameplay. Or, outfits can be internally separated as per the idea.

Either way, it's a good solution to this issue in my view.