Question for devs, open comments solicited : Immersion

[Stardouser]

SOE, what are your plans for PS2 in the so called "immersion" area? By this I mean things like:
1. Head bounce/shoulder sway while running
2. Immersive sound that drowns out shot sounds, whether this is vehicle noises, ambient environment, explosions booming for 500m , or whatever.
3. Ground shaking/vision blurring from nearby explosions, such as tank shells hitting(nearby but far enough away that you get zero damage)
4. Also, I include suppression here, but not as a tactical mechanic, but to the extent that it is used for immersion. You really can't separate the two, yes it's a tactically usable mechanic but it can also be claimed to be an immersive aspect.
5. Slow weapon switching/sluggish aiming/etc(Again, it does have tactical repercussions but is also an immersion thing). I would also talk about sluggish and restrictive prone here except we aren't getting prone.
6. Vaulting instead of jumping(BF3 vaulting is extremely prone to fail on 6 inch objects, leaving you to be shot in the back at your enemy's leisure).
7. Any other blurring/shaking/slowing, or drowning sound that's not really necessary.


These were only examples, I'm sure we could think of 2-3 more, but basically, except for suppression, what I'm talking about here is things that are put in for immersive/realism purposes that don't actually affect tactical or strategic play in the game. Note that I am NOT referring to things like cockpit designs/cockpit forcing; I consider that a completely different issue.

Anyway, the point is, I believe that these things are OK in small doses, but at the extent that they were used in Battlefield 3, they are distractions from the true business of killing the enemy.

What say the People? Again; I included suppression but the point here is not about the tactical uses of it, but whether the sheer annoyance of it is worth the tactical uses.

Sound is of special interest, because in BF2, you could hear shot direction of snipers, but in BF3 you can't. I do not know, but I suspect that the ambient and other immersive sounds are the cause of this. It also affects hearing footsteps. I know many people don't have a problem hearing footsteps but many do. Really, is all the immersion worth it?

[JPalmer]

That sounds like a lot of stuff that is in Battlefield 3. I thought the general thought of everyone here is that stuff from BF3 is bad and casual?

[Stardouser]

Originally Posted by JPalmer

That sounds like a lot of stuff that is in Battlefield 3. I thought the general thought of everyone here is that stuff from BF3 is bad and casual?

Yes, a lot of stuff from BF3 is casual(and therefore bad), but these things, at least to me, aren't part of the casual vs tactical argument. As I say, suppression does fall in as a tactical concern, but the issue here is not that, but instead, whether the annoyance of all the blurring is worth it.

And just to be clear, I am against immersion like this, so it's still bad, just for a different reason that has nothing to do with casualization. Well, let me be specific, too much immersion is bad. A little bit is OK, but if I can list that many things that are pure immersion, it's probably too much.

[Patek]

i like 1, 2, 3, and 7 i actually dont find all of them a problem to be honest with you, but thats just my opinion

[Vancha]

The thing is, I wouldn't call a lot of these things "immersive". I'd rank some of them alongside the infamous screen-of-jam when you get shot in other FPS games.

The same goes for a lot of screen blurring/shaking. A lot of the time they're more immersion-breaking than immersive. The problem is that they're trying to emulate effects that happen at eye-level on a screen that's nearly 2ft away or more.

[Immigrant]

I honestly don't care if most of this stuff is or isn't there. However I really hope there will vaulting over obstacles instead of jumping (except jet-packing for LA). Jumping will be exploited to "dodge" bullets and I hate hoppers, it's a lame tactic.

[BuzzCutPsycho]

Everything you listed as immersive is actually annoying. I personally hate it when I am playing a "modern" shooter and I'm not only fighting the enemy but the annoying shit the game throws at me too.

[Stardouser]

Originally Posted by Immigrant

I honestly don't care if most of this stuff is or isn't there. However I really hope there will vaulting over obstacles instead of jumping (except jet-packing for LA). Jumping will be exploited to "dodge" bullets and I hate hoppers, it's a lame tactic.

It's not an exploit. People should not be expected to sit still and accept being shot.

And even BF3 still has jumping, it's vaulting if you are jumping over something.

Originally Posted by BuzzCutPsycho

Everything you listed as immersive is actually annoying. I personally hate it when I am playing a "modern" shooter and I'm not only fighting the enemy but the annoying shit the game throws at me too.

Agreed. But note, I did not say that I thought they were immersive, only that the game devs think they are and they put them in for that purpose.

[ArmedZealot]

Originally Posted by Stardouser

SOE, what are your plans for PS2 in the so called "immersion" area? By this I mean things like:
1. Head bounce/shoulder sway while running
2. Immersive sound that drowns out shot sounds, whether this is vehicle noises, ambient environment, explosions booming for 500m , or whatever.
3. Ground shaking/vision blurring from nearby explosions, such as tank shells hitting(nearby but far enough away that you get zero damage)
4. Also, I include suppression here, but not as a tactical mechanic, but to the extent that it is used for immersion. You really can't separate the two, yes it's a tactically usable mechanic but it can also be claimed to be an immersive aspect.
5. Slow weapon switching/sluggish aiming/etc(Again, it does have tactical repercussions but is also an immersion thing). I would also talk about sluggish and restrictive prone here except we aren't getting prone.
6. Vaulting instead of jumping(BF3 vaulting is extremely prone to fail on 6 inch objects, leaving you to be shot in the back at your enemy's leisure).
7. Any other blurring/shaking/slowing, or drowning sound that's not really necessary.

I like all of these. And 5 can be tuned to fit in with nanite holstering if many don't like the weapon switch time. Although head bob can be annoying it should be subtle or have a setting to remove it.

Vaulting seems like an issue with level design rather then the mechanic itself. Soldiers have a lot of gear on them, even if it is stored in nanite form. They shouldn't be acrobats. Jumping/vaulting should have a large cooldown and long animations.

But other then that I love this stuff. Shit makes the game fun and adds to all the flavor that this forum spouts that it loves. I want as much of it ingame as possible without getting in the devs way for release.

[Stardouser]

Originally Posted by ArmedZealot

Vaulting seems like an issue with level design rather then the mechanic itself. Soldiers have a lot of gear on them, even if it is stored in nanite form. They shouldn't be acrobats. Jumping/vaulting should have a large cooldown and long animations.

Speaking specifically to vaulting, my real complaint with it is that it seems to fail spectacularly. ie, you should step over 6 inch obstacles, not vault, and even on 6 inch obstacles sometimes you fail to vault them just because you were not facing it dead on with an exactly perpendicular angle. If you hit it at 85 degrees instead of 90, you don't vault it. Regardless of the cause, if that's how it is, I'd rather not have it.

And as for jumping, BC2 did it right - either after your first or second jump, your next jumps would be extremely weak if you didn't quit trying for a few seconds. Since both PS2 and BC2 have similar infantry movement decisions(ie, no prone), I'd rather they look to BC2 for inspiration. That brings up another question - in BC2, you can move relatively swiftly while in crouch, in order to make up for the lack of prone. I think we should be able to move kind of swiftly in crouch in PS2 as well.

[Immigrant]

Originally Posted by Stardouser

It's not an exploit. People should not be expected to sit still and accept being shot.

Yes, it is. jumping should be used for climbing on buildings and structure not dodging enemy fire (except maybe grenades) - so it's an exploit of otherwise legal game mechanic. Mass effect had no jumping yet you weren't supposed to stand still while enemies shot at you. There are other ways of avoiding being hit like running or hiding behind obstacles. Jumping like retarded while spraying bullets around is just plain stupid and ruins immersion. Another solution that would satisfy me is to have jumping but restrict it so it couldn't be done consecutively - there would have to be at least 5 seconds intervals between 2 jumps.

[Stardouser]

Originally Posted by Immigrant

Yes, it is. jumping should be used for climbing on buildings and structure not dodging enemy fire (except maybe grenades) - so it's an exploit of otherwise legal game mechanic. Mass effect had no jumping yet you weren't supposed to stand still while enemies shot at you. There are other ways of avoiding being hit like running or hiding behind obstacles. Jumping like retarded while spraying bullets around is just plain stupid and ruins immersion. Another solution that would satisfy me is to have jumping but restrict it so it could be done consecutively - there would have to be 5 seconds intervals between 2 jumps.

No game should allow you to fire while jumping, some do, though.

Like I said above, BC2 did it right on this. I don't remember if your jumps become weak after the first jump or the second, but very quickly, your jumps become impotent and can't be used to avoid fire. You can still jump, though, so it's not insanely restrictive.

[Immigrant]

Originally Posted by Stardouser

No game should allow you to fire while jumping, some do, though.

Like I said above, BC2 did it right on this. I don't remember if your jumps become weak after the first jump or the second, but very quickly, your jumps become impotent and can't be used to avoid fire. You can still jump, though, so it's not insanely restrictive.

This sounds ok to me.

[The Kush]

I want to play Planetside not BF3. Please stop with these topics don't give the devs any stupid ideas. There is a point when you add too much to a game and then it sucks. Dont cross that line.

[Stardouser]

Originally Posted by The Kush

I want to play Planetside not BF3. Please stop with these topics don't give the devs any stupid ideas. There is a point when you add too much to a game and then it sucks. Dont cross that line.

You do realize that this post is for prevention, not suggestion?