"Specialisation" == tuning.

Figment · 2012-07-16, 06:36 AM

Can we just call what it is and call it "(fine-)tuning" please? The reason is that the term "specialist" gives off the vibe that you get to do something others can't do at all, rather than adapt a playstyle everyone has access to slightly to different situations. Some people have used this in a multitude of debates to defend dev concepts by suggesting you won't be that effective in a role untill you cert things and become a "specialist". Which then according to them takes years and therefore warrants generalist setups, because it would take years to get everything within that role and therefore you couldn't somehow... use... that role? Ehrm... Great... Just that you don't need those certs because they don't give you a general advantage, but specific situation advantages (meaning, you're not the optimal thing for that role, but fine tuned for specific ways of handling that role).

Meaning within a niche, you might set yourself up as a "specialist" for particular situations, but the question is if that makes a difference on the whole if someone else is best tuned for his or her playstyle with an (almost) standard setup.

There's nothing to specialise in if it doesn't mean not having access at all to something else. You have access to all classes. You are all classes. You are thus a generalist by definition. Just like how a BR40 is a unimax noob, even if they never use MAXes. A BR40 CANNOT be a specialist if you look at certs. A player's specialism comes from the ability to play a class well, not about gaining access to options within a class that said player may not even want to use, because they're sidegrade choices.

Meaning you just have a more finely tuned class that fits your playstyle and that DOES NOT require you to invest heavily in every single cert of that class.

You will just be cherry picking the ones you like best and whatever prerequesits there are for it. But since they're predominantly sidegrades and don't give you enhanced combat power, they're just variations on the standard play style for that class.

To illustrate, it's like tuning an existing race car for the Indy 500 and calling it a specialist race car because it turns left faster because the wheels and suspension been off-set a bit. In a sense yes, it's more adapt to that specific situation, but other race cars can also turn left and still compete in the same class. Hell, they might beat you in your own game because you forgot the driving direction for this race goes the other way (!). So much for being the "specialist".

So you can get outtuned ('out-specialised by the standard'), by tuning yourself. Great specialism? No, tuning options for specific situations. Meaning you're tuning to be a situational specialist, not a class specialist.

Or if it's just a dumpster truck and you can select manual garbage delivery or automated with someone rolling the cart to your truck... Eh. Big deal. You're still both specialised at taking out the garbage and at least the one who is not fitted with an automated pick up system can deal with more various forms of trash. So again, it's a "specialism" that's more about limiting your general effectiveness towards a specific effectiveness. Again, that's tuning as it's not something that you don't necessarily need to do in order to be effective in the general role.

Now if you had a choice between a dumpster truck and a race car okay. Then you'd specialise your car into a role the other can't by a longshot. THEN you're a specialist, regardless of how you fill in the specialty.

I know this may sound like semantics to some people, but there's two different definitions of this word in use. There's a distinct difference in how it communicates to people and therefore how it is used in debate on design context. A lot of people for instance took "specialization" as meaning you won't be effective in a class until you specialised in it.

No... It's about tuning your character's gear to your prefered way of fighting that role, or adapt it to specific situations. That's all.

SUBARU · 2012-07-16, 07:15 AM

specialist-picking one class your going to put alot of time and excell at
Tuning - Finding out what loadout works best for you in said class-what weapon,what side grades,what grenades

If I am driving an Indy car, Im Specializing in Indy car .Just because I am a great Indy car driver does mean i can drive Nascar or Grand-am and be good at it

You are so way off

Figment · 2012-07-16, 07:29 AM

Originally Posted by SUBARU

specialist-picking one class your going to put alot of time and excell at
Tuning - Finding out what loadout works best for you in said class-what weapon,what side grades,what grenades

Agreed, just note that you're still a generalist because you CAN use other classes, be it less fine tuned to your liking.

If I am driving an Indy car, Im Specializing in Indy car .Just because I am a great Indy car driver does mean i can drive Nascar or Grand-am and be good at it

You are so way off

How can I be off if that's exactly what I said, I made this the distinction between two types of specialists, which are confused a lot:

Someone who is fined tuned within a class is a SITUATIONAL specialist, not a CLASS specialist. A class specialist is someone who can do something entirely different.

Read it again, it's exactly what I said. :/ I even stated that though you might be excellent at indy racing, you would not be setup as properly for any other niche (rally, nascar, GP etc) that also fills that class' general role (racing). By which I'm saying that doesn't make it intrinsically more valuable, just more valuable in specific contexts.

Hence you don't get a general class benefit that would make that class intrinsically valid where it would not have been before, which is something a lot of people attest and simply isn't true.

As you say, you get an advantage on a specific situation and context within a class, but that doesn't stop anyone else from participating in that context with another setup of the same class. It's for many situations going to be like using wet or dry tires. There's a small difference, but my main point is not that there's no difference, it's questioning if it's enough to warrant people saying you can't really use a class well at all (which again, a lot of people do). A question to which my answer is no, so it's better to use the word tuning than specialising.

Meaning we inherently agree.

PredatorFour · 2012-07-16, 07:31 AM

I think true specialization in Planetside 2 would be to give up classes and let people custom build their loadouts like in PS 1.

Dart · 2012-07-16, 07:45 AM

I'm not saying it's a slow news day....

SUBARU · 2012-07-16, 07:58 AM

Originally Posted by Dart

I'm not saying it's a slow news day....

Its a no news day

Figment · 2012-07-16, 08:01 AM

Originally Posted by Dart

I'm not saying it's a slow news day....

*points people at lexical and conceptual semantics*

<3

It's indeed about "definition within context" vs "general or personal definition(s)" of the word 'specialist'.

The devs refer to situational specialisms, or contextual specialisms simply as specialisms. A lot of people seem to confuse that with their personal definitions of specialisms (regardless what side of a debate they're on and even within groups different definitions are used, adding to the confusion).

Littleman · 2012-07-16, 08:26 AM

Originally Posted by PredatorFour

I think true specialization in Planetside 2 would be to give up classes and let people custom build their loadouts like in PS 1.

Yeah, then everyone can have the exact same specialization: HA/AV/Med/Engi

Figment · 2012-07-16, 08:40 AM

Originally Posted by PredatorFour

I think true specialization in Planetside 2 would be to give up classes and let people custom build their loadouts like in PS 1.

Originally Posted by Littleman

Yeah, then everyone can have the exact same specialization: HA/AV/Med/Engi

"True" specialisation would be somewhere in the middle between PS1 and PS2: where you'd have to pick a select few classes to be available to you and THEN specialize further within those classes.

That way you'd both be a class AND situational specialist.

If you can switch to any class on the fly after each death, you can't really claim to be a class specialist, can you? That's why people refer to it as BR40, although that's not exactly the case.

PredatorFour prefers to define class as "infantry". As such Littleman provides the image of a generalist infantry setup, who combines a lot of infantry specailizations. But under Predator's definition of specialist, he gave up a lot of other tools and vehicles to be able to do that. Meanwhile, Littleman defines specialist as separate infantry roles.

Now think back on why I said this thread was needed in the past few posts and realise these two provide perfect examples of different definitions.

PredatorFour · 2012-07-16, 09:02 AM

Originally Posted by Littleman

Yeah, then everyone can have the exact same specialization: HA/AV/Med/Engi

Not if you only have so many cert points to spend so you cant unlock everything. I dunno why having a custom loadout is so bad compared to classes. With the TTK being short it changes alot to the original PS, when you run up to a guy with jh/av and shoot with your cycler he aint going to turn round and kill you he will be dead.

I think if we had only a certain amount of certs to spend, like in the original, it would create specialization because it would be forced. Although Higby said we can unlock everything if im not mistaken?

Figment · 2012-07-16, 09:22 AM

Originally Posted by PredatorFour

I think if we had only a certain amount of certs to spend, like in the original, it would create specialization because it would be forced. Although Higby said we can unlock everything if im not mistaken?

He did. He gave a timeline of a few years for a new player to have all certs.

In fact, from what I understood, even if you don't play a character, it will still progress off-line as long as you log into it daily and tell it what to research.

Accuser · 2012-07-16, 09:33 AM

Originally Posted by Figment

He did. He gave a timeline of a few years for a new player to have all certs.

In fact, from what I understood, even if you don't play a character, it will still progress off-line as long as you log into it daily and tell it what to research.

Oh hell no your character doesn't "research" anything. You just build up more generic "Cert thingies" just as you would with experience, which eventually add up to "Cert Points" that can be spent to unlock any cert.

ArmedZealot · 2012-07-16, 09:34 AM

Why is this even a thread? Why is it so important to distinguish between the two? Why do you have a problem if people call it specialization, rather than tuning?

Personally I think the two only differ when talking about people or equipment. Both mean the same thing really, to clarify or define the focus of something.

A person is specialized to suite a role.
A gun is tuned to suite a role.

But again it isn't that big of a deal to distinguish it in an argument. When the real theory crafting gets here after the game matures this will come more naturally to forum whores.

Figment · 2012-07-16, 09:47 AM

Originally Posted by ArmedZealot

Why is this even a thread? Why is it so important to distinguish between the two?

For clarity of debate as right now it confuses debates needlessly. It's not just this word though...

Why do you have a problem if people call it specialization, rather than tuning?

Because I tire of seeing 50 different definitions of 'specialist' and people having no idea what other people mean and then going of on tangents that are irrelevant to the context of the other's definition, often completely missing the point.

ArmedZealot · 2012-07-16, 09:57 AM

Originally Posted by Figment

For clarity of debate as right now it confuses debates needlessly. It's not just this word though...

Because I tire of seeing 50 different definitions of 'specialist' and people having no idea what other people mean and then going of on tangents that are irrelevant to the context of the other's definition, often completely missing the point.

Eh, like I said, when people actually have a chance to play the game and we are relying on more than screenshots and hearsay to fulfill our imaginations of the game these things will become more clarified in debates.

Debates themselves will end up moving from "What do you plan on specializing in?" to "Sniper Cert Build + Sidegrades v6.5". Until then we will just have to deal with the weird stuff for now.