NewSith's List of Broken Concepts in the Current Build.

NewSith · 2012-08-31, 06:48 PM

Okay, I figured out that nothing can be done by posting on the official forums, because people still rather blind to these, so I just post it here in hopes of finding "soulmates".

Lack of Early Warning System. You can't tell if the hex is hacked or SCU is down at some distant base/hex just by looking at the map. I always disliked claims that PS2 must be PS1, but that's a feature which is key and is missing. The absence of this very thing is the main reason behind people wanting adjacency hex rule (AHR) so badly, not "ages of backhacking", despite the standing belief.
Outpost Capture Times. Second problem comes along with the first one hand to hand. 40 seconds capture time on outposts. 1 tick is 2 seconds. Even if you had the ability to tell that an outpost is under attack, you would never have enough time to respond.
Adjacent Hex Rule. There's a Malorn's post on the official forums describing perfect AHR, that even I, standing opposing to adjacency rule, agree with. But for some reason devs decided to implement it their way, which (considering the lack of the 2 items, I already mentioned) is not working any single bit.
Vehicle Repair Delay. Repairing is only possible after self-repairs kicks in. I don't know if it's a bug or a feature, but it is definitely a stupid way to deal with endless Galaxy repairs.
Paperthin Secondary Objectives. Same thing about it being a bug or a feature, but I don't see logic behind spawn control unit not being able to take more punishment than a steady spawnpoint, such as, say Gal. While terminals are actualy more resiliant.
Locked AA. Easy as that - a naked character (a newly created one) has NO counters against manned aircraft. The closest AA he can get is 10k Auraxium Skyguard Cannon for Lightning (which is sheep right now, because of its crazy recoil).
MAXes. Okay, this one is delicate. We all know there're 2 camps of people - OP group and UP group. I take the third one. I ask - Do we REALLY need MAXes in a game with such kind of pacing? But even if they are in the game, the class definitely needs to be treated as a vehicle, not as a class in its full right.
"We Like BF, But We Fear PS1 Vets" Approach. My perfect example is flares. 1 minute timer on these. Seriously, one minute timer. I know it was done because of how Stinger is useless against jets in Battlefield 3, but this doesn't mean you should implement a feature that you tune to be useless.
Footholds. I really don't understand the reasoning behind not having Sancs. Afterall, you can just make it so the new players are spawning in a planetary warpgate instead of the sanc. COntinental Conaquest is indeed a very fun part of the former game. But I'll keep my mouth shut about it until we see 3 full continents in the game.
The Crown. I have mixed feelings about this one. On one hand - it helps filter out players that don't really care about strategical depth of PlanetSide 2 and come there just to pewpew. Plus going into meatgrind from time to time really helps to relax. 64p Operation Metro is a map necessary for BF3. On the other hand, though, - it draws ALL action to the center, while far reaches are just left there to be ghosted back and forth all the time.
Rocketpods. They take your "rocketpods are OP" slot. Shouldn't be like that.
Indar Continent Base Placement. Allatum, Hvar, Peris. All bases belong to South-West biome. All 3 bases are being contested 24/7. With only maybe, Zurvan being more populated.
Vehicles Being Treated as Consumables. In short - you can't reequip your vehicles, and the whole vehicular gameplay feels very different from PS1. Vehicles feel very expendable.
Absence of VR. Basically you buy Auraxium stuff based on people's feedback. I don't really think that's the way to go, especially considering the Auraxium income rates and the fact that you can spend real money on these. This includes both infantry weapons and vehicle weapons.

In conclusion, I would like to add that I really dislike how devs always go critical and do unnecessarily drastic changes to everything, people whine about. AA was whined about, it got nerfed to crap. People disliked stacking Sunderer reapairs, they removed repairs as a whole. People raged about Galaxies being endlessly repaired, they put a delay on repairing. I forsee Liberator going to the dustbin in the next patch if it goes on that way...

EDIT: Sorry for being a dick, but the last paragraph actually reminds me of Lasher issues back in the day.

Archonzero · 2012-08-31, 07:54 PM

Originally Posted by NewSith

[LIST=1][*]Lack of Early Warning System. You can't tell if the hex is hacked or SCU is down at some distant base/hex just by looking at the map. I always disliked claims that PS2 must be PS1, but that's a feature which is key and is missing. The absence of this very thing is the main reason behind people wanting adjacency hex rule (AHR) so badly, not "ages of backhacking", despite the standing belief.

EWS is an issue, for the lack of. Remember this isn't a polished build yet, so many things will get implemented, eventually.

Originally Posted by NewSith

[*]Outpost Capture Times. Second problem comes along with the first one hand to hand. 40 seconds capture time on outposts. 1 tick is 2 seconds. Even if you had the ability to tell that an outpost is under attack, you would never have enough time to respond.

I agree the time to take a CP should be longer, at least 25%-50% long timer.

Originally Posted by NewSith

[*]Adjacent Hex Rule. There's a Malorn's post on the official forums describing perfect AHR, that even I, standing opposing to adjacency rule, agree with. But for some reason devs decided to implement it their way, which (considering the lack of the 2 items, I already mentioned) is not working any single bit.

Implementation of the AHR is still a test, while many have found it a nice additional concept. There are exploitable tactics that can make an entire series of hexes collapse like domino's. Without an EWS system or physical eyes on the ground, players won't know whats happening until they're back at their WG.

Originally Posted by NewSith

[*]Vehicle Repair Delay. Repairing is only possible after self-repairs kicks in. I don't know if it's a bug or a feature, but it is definitely a stupid way to deal with endless Galaxy repairs.

Sounds like a bug. If it's not they should replace it, engineer teams keeping a MSP up can be a decided factor to a successful assault or failure.

Originally Posted by NewSith

[*]Paperthin Secondary Objectives. Same thing about it being a bug or a feature, but I don't see logic behind spawn control unit not being able to take more punishment than a steady spawnpoint, as, say Gal. While terminals are actualy more resiliant.

Generators need to be stronger, they also need to be labelled more clearly (GEN with some AlphaNumerical attachment). As well spam an ALERT to all friendlies in the area when it's being damaged. Over head of reticle, ALERT GEN A1 - Zurvan under attack!

Originally Posted by NewSith

[*]Locked AA. Easy as that - a naked character (a newly created one) has NO counters against manned aircraft. The closest AA he can get is 10k Auraxium Skyguard Cannon for Lightning (which is sheep right now, because of its crazy recoil).

I'm fine with that, even without this being a realism sim or close to it. As well to be expected your gonna die, no matter how much you duck dive or dodge.

Originally Posted by NewSith

[*]MAXes. Okay, this one is delicate. We all know there're 2 camps of people - OP group and UP group. I take the third one. I ask - Do we REALLY need MAXes in a game with such kind of pacing? But even if they are in the game, the class definitely needs to be treated as a vehicle, not as a class in its full right.

Should have some sort of limitation. 50 resources every spawn (with a reduced timer cert)

Originally Posted by NewSith

[*]"We Like BF, But We Fear PS1 Vets" Approach. My perfect example is flares. 1 minute timer on these. Seriously, one minute timer. I know it was done because of how Stinger is useless against jets in Battlefield 3, but this doesn't mean you should implement a feature that you tune to be useless.

I have no trouble knocking out air with stingers. Just cause you lock on.. doesn't mean fire ASAP. Operate in teams, target the same flier, one fires the missile.. pilots flares.. then the second guy shoots, you've reloaded and get tone an shoot as well.

I'm not sure what the actual timer on flares is set too, but 15-20seconds between flares would be quite acceptable. Can't knock out a flyer with an AA locked missile in 20sec flare intervals. You're doing it wrong.

Originally Posted by NewSith

[*]The Crown. I have mixed feelings about this one. On one hand - it helps filter out players that don't really care about strategical depth of PlanetSide 2 and come there just to pewpew. Plus going into meatgrind from time to time really helps to relax. 64p Operation Metro is a map necessary for BF3. On the other hand, though, - it draws ALL action to the center, while far reaches are just left there to be ghosted back and forth all the time.

Let the twitch junkies fight over the zerg areas. I like the Crown as it is, sometimes it's fun to just, as you said chill out an get into a meatgrinder firefight.

Originally Posted by NewSith

[*]Vehicles Being Treated as Consumables. In short - you can't reequip your vehicles, and the whole vehicular gameplay feels very different from PS1.

They feel quite fine to me, in fact aside from the lack of traction control with ground vehicles.. the improved flyer physics are great!

Originally Posted by NewSith

Absence of VR Basically you buy Auraxium stuff based on people's feedback. I don't really think that's the way to go, especially considering the Auraxium income rates and the fact that you can spend real money on these. This includes both infantry weapons and vehicle weapons.

There should be a VR test facility, to allow players to test anything before buying it.

Originally Posted by NewSith

In conclusion, I would like to add that I really dislike how devs always go critical and do unnecessarily drastic changes to everything, people whine about. AA was whined about, it got nerfed to crap. People disliked stacking Sunderer reapairs, they removed repairs as a whole. People raged about Galaxies being endlessly repaired, they put a delay on repairing. I forsee Liberator going to the dustbin in the next patch if it goes on that way...

Overlapping repairs was an issue. Stacking Sunderer's made a near unkillable wrecking ball center point, only way to kill them was a liberator run. If the enemy had a proper air screen/interceptor cover, it would be next to impossible. Especially if they add MSP system option to the Sunderer's list of equipment options.

Did they fully remove the repair system?

NewSith · 2012-08-31, 08:01 PM

I want to say just one more thing.

I am a PlanetSide veteran, I played the game since the school, I liked the game and always promoted it to any gamer I knew.

During all the PS2 development time I was sitting here, always open to any change of the original gameplay, open to innovation. I always liked and supported the team, I kept adding lots of those ideas in the idea lab, and told everyone of my relatives, friends and just people I'm not a stranger to about this game. If you go through the search, you'll find that I have almost never been negative.

Even now I'm reading the thread I created and feel myself a dick for posting what I posted. However it crosses my mind more often that devs are starting to make bad calls, and in my opinion (not trying to be an elitist here or thinking too much of myself) if a person like myself is starting to feel that way, that's saying something.

Originally Posted by Archonzero

Did they fully remove the repair system?

Yup, Sunderers no longer have AoE repairs, only ammo dispensing.

Archonzero · 2012-08-31, 08:19 PM

When was it removed? Hopefully it's being re-designed, so there's no overlapping effect. An coming back as a modular addition that can be purchased.

Originally Posted by NewSith

I want to say just one more thing.

I am a PlanetSide veteran, I played the game since the school, I liked the game and always promoted it to any gamer I knew.

Same here, beta tested PS1, played retail for a couple years, promoted it to every gamer I knew. An still talked about it fondly long after it died out, for me at least (not literally, but the player pop sure did)

NewSith · 2012-08-31, 08:21 PM

Originally Posted by Archonzero

When was it removed? Hopefully it's being re-designed, so there's no overlapping effect. An coming back as a modular addition that can be purchased.

As some sunderer lovers from my outfit claim - with the AHR patch.

EvilNinjadude · 2012-09-01, 03:20 AM

I agree with ArchonZero's list of response points, and want to add that vehicles despawn way too fast: Getting out of a tank to capture a point will invariably lead to me running back out and wondering where my Tank went.

It shouldn't be like that imho. It really shouldn't. Just because I have a tank doesn't mean I should be useless in capping, especially if I'm capping areas that nobody else from my Empire is trying to cap.

I shouldn't be punished for that, should I?

Originally Posted by Archonzero

Hopefully it's being re-designed, so there's no overlapping effect. An coming back as a modular addition that can be purchased.

Hopefully fitting in the same slot as the Vehicle Resupply function, forcing people to choose.

elementHTTP · 2012-09-01, 03:33 AM

Originally Posted by NewSith

[LIST=1][*]Lack of Early Warning System. You can't tell if the hex is hacked or SCU is down at some distant base/hex just by looking at the map. I always disliked claims that PS2 must be PS1, but that's a feature which is key and is missing. The absence of this very thing is the main reason behind people wanting adjacency hex rule (AHR) so badly, not "ages of backhacking", despite the standing belief.

[*]Outpost Capture Times. Second problem comes along with the first one hand to hand. 40 seconds capture time on outposts. 1 tick is 2 seconds. Even if you had the ability to tell that an outpost is under attack, you would never have enough time to respond.

[*]Adjacent Hex Rule. There's a Malorn's post on the official forums describing perfect AHR, that even I, standing opposing to adjacency rule, agree with. But for some reason devs decided to implement it their way, which (considering the lack of the 2 items, I already mentioned) is not working any single bit.

These 3 are most important ! Its far to easy to SPAM capture bases / /smaller facilities behind enemy line as inf class with flash

IMO sunderer has no use - GAL can do better job

CrystalViolet · 2012-09-01, 03:45 AM

Agree with some of your points, disagree with others. Posting this right now so I can come back when I'm sober and edit in some decent points.

Canaris · 2012-09-01, 03:47 AM

You raise some very nice points that I'm sure will get addressed in due time, however

Outpost Capture Times. Second problem comes along with the first one hand to hand. 40 seconds capture time on outposts. 1 tick is 2 seconds. Even if you had the ability to tell that an outpost is under attack, you would never have enough time to respond.

I feel a bit different over this one, I think of them more like the towers of the original PS, they were always being flipped back and forth. I don't think it should take huge amounts of time waiting about to capture an outpost. Maybe a slight increase in capture time but nothing drastic.

Oh and deffo +1 for the Early Warning system but I would like to see it centered around large bases only.
Yellow alert @ Zurvan
RED ALERT @ PERIS
Wouldn't want to see tracked migrations of the Zerg

Kipper · 2012-09-01, 05:00 AM

On capture times; I really don't think one person should be capable of flipping any hex that has enemy territory adjacent. It should take probably 4-6 people to even start the capture.

The large facilities need their own individual tower type facilities like PS1 that serve not to flip a hex, but to take down a defensive shield on the main facility which does.

The 'smaller' hexes don't need a shield, but just more resilience to quick ninja caps IMO.

EvilNinjadude · 2012-09-01, 05:55 AM

Originally Posted by Kipper

On capture times; I really don't think one person should be capable of flipping any hex that has enemy territory adjacent. It should take probably 4-6 people to even start the capture.

The large facilities need their own individual tower type facilities like PS1 that serve not to flip a hex, but to take down a defensive shield on the main facility which does.

The 'smaller' hexes don't need a shield, but just more resilience to quick ninja caps IMO.

A minimum player number to cap non-adjacent Territories? YES! That's exactly what we need.

Go with 2 people for smaller bases. This disallows single Flash/Lightning/singlepersonaircraft caps.

Or go with 4, if you want to disable Liberator caps as well.

Xyntech · 2012-09-01, 12:10 PM

Some good points. I disagree with a few, but for the most part these are some things that will need work.

Lack of Early Warning System.
This is one of the first major gameplay problems I noticed when I got into beta. Currently even if you mouse over a hex, there is no way to know for certain that it's okay unless it's a hotspot and you can look at the ticket counter. Having a simple indicator that a hex is being hacked, with further information available upon mouse over will be a big help to the game, especially once we have even more continents to worry about.
Outpost Capture Times. I feel like the developers underestimated outpost battles and made them too similar to PS1, sort of like how they planned on infantry engagement distances being shorter than they have turned out. Outposts flip very similarly to towers from PS1, but in reality they are much more like miniature versions of the bases from the first game. Taking an outpost should definitely be a more drawn out battle experience, with base fights being epic warzones that can easily last hours or days for the front line to shift past it.
Adjacent Hex Rule. This is currently in a slow ramp up testing phase. I agree that it's pretty broken right now, but it's already showing the value of having some sort of system to create stronger front lines, so despite being a bit FUBAR I would say that it's still doing it's job as a testing grounds.
Vehicle Repair Delay. Being unable to manually repair while taking damage is terrible, but I also hope they don't put it back where it was where you can repair just as quickly while taking damage. A system like TF2's medic where you can repair very fast on something that hasn't taken damage for a while, but can only slowly repair something currently under fire would be an ideal solution. A large group of engi's could still keep a Galaxy alive under fire, but there would still be importance put on eliminating the threat.
Paperthin Secondary Objectives. Galaxies are meant to take bombardment from vehicles though, while spawn control units are mostly meant to take abuse from infantry. Not disagreeing that they could probably use some tweaking, but it's a bit apples and oranges.
Locked AA. I'd like to see the default AV gun be turned into a rocket launcher that can only lock on to aircraft and dumbfire at ground targets. I get the feeling that the default equipment is a bit placeholder at the moment, but that just means we need to make sure they get it right, not roll over and assume it will all work out for the best because "it's beta."
MAXes. I'm still muddling through what my thoughts are on MAXes. They definitely need a lot of work of some kind, I'm just undecided as to what course of action would be best to balance them.
"We Like BF, But We Fear PS1 Vets" Approach. Meh, I think this is mostly just because of the current stage of development. They are combining Planetside, Halo and Battlefield into a third thing which in the end will probably be unique from all three. I do hope we see a more dynamic flare system added though.
Footholds. You know what? I don't even need to see more continents. I totally agree that having a small sanctuary area would be awesome. I wasn't sure if it would be needed, but after playing beta I definitely think it would be a welcome addition to the footholds. A place for people to log in and AFK a little if nothing else, for fucks sake. A VR room too, preferably with the option to create personal instances (which you could invite friends into) for undisturbed testing/training.
As for footholds as relates to global conquest, I don't think a sanc is mandatory. They could totally put in a system where empires can get kicked out of all but their final foothold on the entire world, with the remaining warpgates being turned into broadcast warpgates. I definitely agree that the game would be improved by having a global conquest system, as opposed to the devs current plans to always have ever empire have a representation on each map, but I think there are multiple ways of going about it.
The Crown. The Crown + Zurvan is a huge problem with continental strategy at the moment. Personally, I think that the situation would be vastly improved if there were a tenth base facility on Indar, acting as a sort of combination between Zurvan and The Crown. Right now, whoever is in the south east is disadvantaged by the fact that one of their 3 home bases is universally considered as the central battleground that everyone wants to take all of the time. If all three empires had one 3 way prone base and 2 2 way prone base, but there was also a central neutral claim base for all of the clusterfucking to happen over, then all three empires would have a lot more of an even shot to push out and wreak havoc on the other two empires. I don't think the terrain layout is currently nearly as imbalanced as the facility layout, and as long as there isn't an obvious central facility that screams "capture me!," I think there will always be some imbalance.
Rocketpods. Rocket pods do need some balancing. The current ones are perfect for anti infantry, and should be nerfed against armor. Then they could just add another AV rocket that does the current rocket pods AV damage, but with slightly reduced infantry damage and significantly reduced splash.
Indar Continent Base Placement. As mentioned before, I have some issues with some of the facility placement, but for the most part I think a lot of it will even out as capture timers are balanced and the hex adjacency system is improved. Hopefully they are taking some lessons from Indar for future maps though, because there are definitely some major problems. I'm hoping for a major Indar overhaul sometime before or shortly after the game launches, after they have perfected their continent balancing strategies.
[B][COLOR="DeepSkyBlue"]It's ironic that they feel so expendable despite costing resources now. I know that for me, one of the big reasons they feel so cheep is that they disappear if I leave them for too long (I'm not sure, but this may have been partially fixed recently). I think a few tweaks will really fix this up though. I'd love to be able to put a new weapon or turret on my vehicle at an ammo resupply point. Tanks will need a little more armor as well. They do feel a bit expendable, but I think it's currently a lot of little things that are dragging them down. Vehicles are definitely a lot of fun though, so they've got that going for them.
Absence of VR. Yep. It doesn't even have to be a physical building like in the first game. It's virtual, just let players download themselves into it from any location. As I mentioned before, allow players to spawn into their own personal VR room, or invite outfit mates as well. As long as there is no genuine fighting going on, it's not going to take anything away from the open world battles.

Overall, I think the devs are doing a pretty decent job of fixing the issues. They have overcompensated on some things, but based on what they've said it sounds like they are even aware of that problem of swinging the nerf hammer to heavily as well.

These are the kinds of comments and discussions that are going to help fix the game and turn it into something awesome. Beta means broken, and Planetside 2 is most certainly broken at the moment. It's still a lot of fun, but we need to address the issues. It's also important to try to separate as much personal bias and disappointment from these posts as possible though, because that shit doesn't help anyone.

TheBladeRoden · 2012-09-02, 06:09 AM

I would like this post if the system were still in place

Stardouser · 2012-09-02, 06:16 AM

Repair delays might be a good thing, It prevents in combat repair, there's nothing more stupid than a tank camping 200 meters away with 5 engineers behind it that you can't kill. Though, the same principle should probably apply to MAXes. Those can apparently be repaired by an engineer around a corner even as you're shooting the MAX.

Also, yes. Battlefield 3's gameplay for vehicles is not to be emulated. 1 minute delay on flares, just no. Instead, have ammo loads for flares, and force you to use multiple flares to ensure that you get away from a missile.

NewSith · 2012-09-02, 07:15 AM

Originally Posted by Stardouser

Repair delays might be a good thing, It prevents in combat repair, there's nothing more stupid than a tank camping 200 meters away with 5 engineers behind it that you can't kill. Though, the same principle should probably apply to MAXes. Those can apparently be repaired by an engineer around a corner even as you're shooting the MAX.

Also, yes. Battlefield 3's gameplay for vehicles is not to be emulated. 1 minute delay on flares, just no. Instead, have ammo loads for flares, and force you to use multiple flares to ensure that you get away from a missile.

What I meant is that the Devs are afraid to implement a working feature from BF properly exactly because of how people respond all the time. Respond with comments just like this one.