The Gameplay Feels Too... Unlimited???

NewSith · 2012-09-06, 08:18 PM

I made a post on the official PS2 forums (http://forums.station.sony.com/ps2/i...limited.14951/), here's the conent. I really want to know what you guys can say.

Okay this may sound odd, but let me elaborate:

I was thinking what made these posts

Originally Posted by NewSith

PS2 is BF3 as of now, just with persistence.

Each facility, not counting outposts, is basically a Battlefield 3 map with 2-5 minute breaks between matches (except for Zurvan for a change, which is more like the classic base and feels way more intuitive, and Peris being somewhat of a tug-of war, that you can still easily lose, though which needs to be reimagined). As I said, right now PlanetSide 2 needs waaaaay more polishing before it "kicks bf3 in the sack" and I hope that happens before launch (or even Open Beta, because of later being a Demo version in fact).

Originally Posted by NewSith

TBH, Battlefield 3 kept me interested longer than the current state of PS2 Beta. There's something about it right now that makes it very boring to play. Mostly considering how now the fighting only occurs at the pre-defined locations - North-SouthWest Biome Border, The Crown, Allatum, Hvar, Peris and Zurvan. Not like this is happening 24/7, but it is getting boring really fast. And the game also feels very incomplete, but not in small details as in certs and weapon balance, but on a more global level... Must be a prejudgement, but it almost feels like the devs skipped forming the summary feel of the game and went straight down to trivia, without hesitation.

actually true for me. Now after some consideration I think I realised something. I'll try to keep it as short as possible.

PlanetSide 1 was a game with very limiting mechanics - only two ways of spawning (mobile spawn and tube spawn), lattice, terrain, high TTKs, low flight ceiling... The devs are officially stating that they want player options to be unlimited in the new game.

Now here's the thing. I, for one, am not a fan of "unlimited". Here's why: Thinking about what I said about the Global Picture, I realised - one major thing I dislike about the Beta is that, in fact, I can do ANYTHING in it. And the game doesn't really punish me or demands a price for playing some certain way. While it may not be up on the surface, because of classes and stuff, it IS true. Just think about it - cooldown timers can be removed, resources replenish endlessly, HEX map presents a big chessboard, that, in fact, has no "neutral" areas (PIC1 and PIC2 to elaborate my point) limiting the strategical choices for hexes, which also brings up another problem - rather bold accessibility of most of the hexes, with the adjacency rule or without it. Even the map (which is as of now our only map) basically puts NO restrictions on moving inside the biomes, the only limits are there on the biome borders and South-East biome that can still EASILY be overwritten by a spawnpoint that can actually fly... Not to mention the br40 concept.

So what I say is the devs are all talking about Rock-Paper-Scissors. Now let me remind you that the famous RPS game has the most severe limitations. It has no water to sink the rock and the scissors, it has no high temperature fire to melt the scissors and burn the paper, it has no Death Star to destroy all three. Now I know this is all good and stuff, but what is the main difference between any game (be it connected to physical or mental activities) and LIFE. It's that games have limitations, usually - rules, the unbreakable ones in fact, otherwise it stops being a game and becomes life. People don't usually play games to live another life. Even players of "Second Life".

I don't understand why it didn't cross my mind earlier, but I think that's THE EXACT reason quite a few people are getting bored with it really quickly, and I bet at least half of them didn't yet realise what I did. There's no incentive to "challenge the system", because there is no system...

Crator · 2012-09-06, 08:23 PM

Yeah, but they are currently working on base capture mechanics based on player feedback right?

NewSith · 2012-09-06, 08:30 PM

Originally Posted by Crator

Yeah, but they are currently working on base capture mechanics based on player feedback right?

Well, it's not just capture mechanics it's something bigger and capture mechanics is only a piece of the puzzle.

cellinaire · 2012-09-06, 09:05 PM

So, is this thread basically about the "PS2 lacks metagame feature" in another title?

Or something... more?

Renegadeknight · 2012-09-07, 12:30 AM

Well ps1 didn't limit too much. You could change your certs and actually had more freedom in equipment choice. though ps2 is probably less strict, I don't think it is as severe as you make it out to be. The only big problem I see is that things flip to easier, needs to take more effort in my opinion.

Rat · 2012-09-07, 01:23 PM

I think one of the biggest things missing is logistics, we need to be able to haul something that is vital to keep a facility under control....there is no "WE NEED THIS HERE NOW!!!" mechanic....There is no "WE NEED TO STOP THEM FROM GETTING THIS NOW!!!"...rignt now alll we do is watch the ticket counter and wait to collect 500XP.

SOE says they want battles between facilities. Bring back the LLU.

Crator · 2012-09-07, 02:08 PM

I just noticed the title should say "Limited???" instead of "Unlimited"....

Sunrock · 2012-09-07, 02:26 PM

I think it does not have so mush to do with what you say in your post but that SP2 totally lack achievements in any form. There are no long term goals in the game and the short turn goals of taking one base is way too shallow to give any meaning to play the game.

Personally I can't get my self to play this game for more then an hour at the time. And that is a big indication that there is something major wrong with the game design. The game should be designed in a way so I don't want to be without it for an hour. And this is because the game does not give me any feeling of accomplishment.

Syphus · 2012-09-07, 05:35 PM

Originally Posted by Rat

SOE says they want battles between facilities. Bring back the LLU.

Sorry but capture the flag is not going to fix whatever you're trying to say.

Ryoji · 2012-09-07, 06:02 PM

Originally Posted by Sunrock

I think it does not have so mush to do with what you say in your post but that SP2 totally lack achievements in any form. There are no long term goals in the game and the short turn goals of taking one base is way too shallow to give any meaning to play the game.

Personally I can't get my self to play this game for more then an hour at the time. And that is a big indication that there is something major wrong with the game design. The game should be designed in a way so I don't want to be without it for an hour. And this is because the game does not give me any feeling of accomplishment.

Agree with this really at the moment, bases are much too easy to capture - unless you have a couple squads manning walls of Zurvan... :P every battle is too easy. Especially when you spend 15 minutes fighting to take a place only for it to be retaken 6 minutes later, I think there should be a longer cool down timer after taking a base otherwise it just takes away from the persistent gameplay experience I want nomnomnom.

SixShooter · 2012-09-07, 08:59 PM

I think that one of the biggest things missing right now is a sense of direction. There is no real leadership happening right now except within established outfits. The zerg wanders lazily around the middle of the map just following the sound of war. What they need is to be told where to go, a battle plan to follow. Thats what's missing.

Right now everything is so random and unorganized that it's a lot like getting into random Battlefield matches and I can see where people could loose interest. Once the game starts to flesh out more, then this will change but for now, just have fun finding bugs and shooting people in face.

I'm having a blast and have no problem playing for 10 hours straight without getting bored because I know that there is so much more to come.

Cronoc · 2012-09-08, 04:35 AM

Hopefully the mission/objective system will help fix this a little bit, it's easy to wander aimlessly right now. Also, fixing hotspots (or have they already been fixed?)

sylphaen · 2012-09-08, 06:26 AM

I can't pinpoint the feeling I had when I played either but something was definitely missing in battles. They seem to go too fast/be too short. There is a lack of pressure build-up on an objective or maybe that pressure gets released too fast due to capture mechanics.

One thing that definitely bothers me is the way the cert system works. Basically, it's not a cert system but an unlock system. There is no thought or choice involved: simply unlock as you go.

Basically, it's indeed BR40 where the only limit is what you equip on your class. Let's take the recent LA jumpjet example, people theorize it was nerfed to make room for "certs". At this point, why not allow jumpjets only after you start certing into them ? More cert progression ! (until you have spent the time and/or money to have everything unlocked)

What I would like to see is real choices. Yes, priority of certs acquisition is important and a nice unlock progression feature but I would like to see a deeper mechanic with real choices and trade-offs. When I have my full jumpjets unlocked with full nanoweave armor with 10 C4 packs allowed in my bandolier pack, I would like trade-offs:
- if you take more explosives, you should not be able to fly as high.
- if you take no explosives and light armor, you should have super responsive jetpacks.

For instance, I also hope some hybridization between classes makes a return at a cost. As a HA, I would be willing to take away my AA/AV weapon for an extra something else (more grenades, explosives from other classes, an extra medkit, etc...). It would be a costly trade-off that you could find worthy (eg: extra potential to push a position) or a nightmare (eg: if any kind of vehicle appears).

Anyways, I hope that's where they are going character wise and I hope it will be deeped. There are already self-healing tools for LA (smart choice imo since like the infil, it's a class meant to act away from the main force).

Of course, all this character progression is useless if there is no fun battle to participate in and be enjoyed... With all it's issues, PS1 had a knack to create epic encounters with only 300+ players per map. I can't pinpoint what exactly what lacks in PS2 combat.

Snipefrag · 2012-09-08, 07:55 AM

Originally Posted by Ryoji

Agree with this really at the moment, bases are much too easy to capture - unless you have a couple squads manning walls of Zurvan... :P every battle is too easy. Especially when you spend 15 minutes fighting to take a place only for it to be retaken 6 minutes later, I think there should be a longer cool down timer after taking a base otherwise it just takes away from the persistent gameplay experience I want nomnomnom.

That is the real problem, territory is too easy to capture.. Reason is.. Things flip too quickly and importantly.. You don't get adequate warning on the minimap that stuff is in contest.. Think of PS1.. You get an enemy population warning, individual hot spots, tower hacks, base hacks, /contall's, CUD reveal enemies, influence overlay... And then it takes at least 15 mins to flip the 'territory'.. The devs have it in hand, they know this isn't how the game should be.

SpottyGekko · 2012-09-08, 09:28 AM

Originally Posted by Snipefrag

That is the real problem, territory is too easy to capture.. Reason is.. Things flip too quickly and importantly.. You don't get adequate warning on the minimap that stuff is in contest.. Think of PS1.. You get an enemy population warning, individual hot spots, tower hacks, base hacks, /contall's, CUD reveal enemies, influence overlay... And then it takes at least 15 mins to flip the 'territory'.. The devs have it in hand, they know this isn't how the game should be.

Yesterday on EU1 I saw the base swapping merry-go-round in full swing. Vanu were capping NC outposts and then withdrawing and hiding nearby. NC fly in and recap. As soon as the NC leave the outpost, 1 or 2 Vanu come out of hiding and recap it the moment the timers wear off, then respawn as MAX'es. A handfull of players were spending all their time doing this.

Of course, given current mechanics, the only way to counter that is to leave guards at every outpost, because there's no way to tell if a capture is in progress. You only know about it once it's accomplished and the map area changes color.

But guarding is reactive play and intensely boring the majority of the time, and there's far fewer people who'll willingly play that way as opposed to being the sneaky attackers that capture outposts. I guess the only effective counter is to have dedicated hunter/killer teams that will specialise in nailing the ninja's.