Certs - our long term plan

Geist · 2012-09-17, 12:49 AM

Another cert thread. I would have posted in the Cert Changes thread but this seems different.

http://forums.station.sony.com/ps2/i...rm-plan.20133/

Originally Posted by Smed

Hi everyone,

Last week in the beta status I specifically referenced that certs were getting closer to their final times. We aren't done yet so don't assume what we have now is final. It may be too slow or fast. still measuring.. You will also notice that offline cert point gain has stopped. That is intentional. We do plan on putting that feature as something you automatically get with a sub and we *may* offer it as something you can purchase as well (it may only last a month btw).

I want to make sure everyone understands our goal with cert points is to get you in the game and playing. Playing will get you enough cert points to advance to whatever your goals are in reasonable time. If you notice we give you almost everything a skill based shooter needs right away. And you specifically will get that for free. Cert point gain is also for free. You will be able to speed it up with XP boosts (XP over time = cert points) and you can get it offline the way I mentioned above.

Also I made it clear in that previous beta status that time invested in this game IS going to matter. Is it going to unbalance it vs. the casual player? No. We've designed the game with that in mind. It does mean the person with more time invested will have more options. But not skill. That's all about the player.

I've been saying for a long time that we plan on having a deep enough cert tree for years of play. About 20% of the certs in the game will have top ends that require a lot of time investment to get. But getting 80% of the way there be painless even for a free player.

We've done our best to make a great game with a very deep certification system that will let you still be advancing years from now with just the stuff we have in the game today. We don't want our system to be as quick as unlocking in MW3 or BF3. That's specifically something we do NOT want. We want this game to have long legs and give you something cool and meaningful when you put the time in.

We also want the more casual player to have options to keep up with the heavier players.

We still have balancing work to do. we expect all the certs to be in the game in the next few weeks.

Thanks

Smed

Conq · 2012-09-17, 01:01 AM

Nice, I was concerned casual players would fall drastically behind hardcores on certifications but my faith is restored. I don't mind paying a monthly sub for offline cert point gain.

Sunrock · 2012-09-17, 02:11 AM

Originally Posted by Conq

Nice, I was concerned casual players would fall drastically behind hardcores on certifications but my faith is restored. I don't mind paying a monthly sub for offline cert point gain.

Yea well... Hardcore players will also pay monthly sub fees.... We need to sleep too after all

But hardcore does not really apply that you spend crazy amount of time in game. Just that you have a high priority of being online when you have a choice to do so, not spend the night bowling instead for an example...

artifice · 2012-09-17, 02:54 AM

A SOE F2P games goes P2W... shocking.

SixShooter · 2012-09-17, 03:27 AM

Originally Posted by artifice

A SOE F2P games goes P2W... shocking.

You're wrong but funny.

Sunrock · 2012-09-17, 03:44 AM

Originally Posted by SixShooter

You're wrong but funny.

All F2P games are pay to win. Just a question of in what degree they are that. Exp boosts you pay money for is a small form of pay to win. Even if it's not as big as buying "ultimate weapon of doom" you still pay to get a bigger reward. I don't understand way people say it's just convenience. Because wining in online games is just convenience items and abilities you gain as reward.

Bags · 2012-09-17, 04:02 AM

If it went live in it's current implementation, it would essentially be as close to full on P2W as you can be without being P2W.

Whether or not it's realistically P2W comes down to how fast you can earn certs per hour on release. ATM it's really really really slow, to the point where you can't keep up with someone getting 30 certs a night for paying a sub, seeing as certs are upgrades.

Raka Maru · 2012-09-17, 04:49 AM

My faith is restored also. Don't know if I will keep a sub open but I like the pay by month cert gain w/o sub.

Would like to touch on the 24 hr XP boosters Mr. Smed. For casuals to ever want to use these, it would have to be base on in-game time. If I know I have 2 hrs to kill in PS2' I want an XP boost and would buy one, but if I will only see 2 hrs of that, I wouldn't buy it because it would only be worth less than 10% of the cost.

Perhaps have them in real game time? Or at the very least, a smaller time chunk at lower cost? The fairest option IMO is in-game time bound boosters, I would definitely always keep my slots full if they were like this.

Thank you for listening!

SpottyGekko · 2012-09-17, 04:55 AM

Originally Posted by Sunrock

All F2P games are pay to win. Just a question of in what degree they are that. Exp boosts you pay money for is a small form of pay to win. Even if it's not as big as buying "ultimate weapon of doom" you still pay to get a bigger reward. I don't understand way people say it's just convenience. Because wining in online games is just convenience items and abilities you gain as reward.

The old definition of "Pay to Win" used to be: "You can only buy advantage X in the Cash Shop with real money. No way to get it by playing the game."

I see the old definition is being discarded somewhat. It's being changed to: "If you can buy ANY advantage in the Cash Shop, the game is P2W".

The Cash Shop gives those with less time a way to stay competitive with those lucky people who can play 4-6 hours EVERY day. Seems like a good idea to me. Besides, Freeloaders are still totally viable in the game, they just have fewer options.

Sounds very much like Smed is borrowing from EVE's playbook:

About 20% of the certs in the game will have top ends that require a lot of time investment to get. But getting 80% of the way there be painless even for a free player.

In EVE, the first 4 levels of progression in any skill are fairly easy to achieve. The 5th level usually takes longer than all four of the previous levels combined, but does not give any more benefit than any of the prior individual levels (i.e. each level gives +5%).

However, any game that features progression over time eventually gets to a point where new players are going to feel somewhat "underpowered". Even if each cert only gives 1% advantage, after a year when the average player has unlocked 20 or 30 certs, that "veteran" will be perfoming 25% better than a raw n00b. Keeping THAT situation from developing in future is the real trick.

Flaropri · 2012-09-17, 06:49 AM

Certs are an advantage within a specific loadout, but there is a "soft cap" to what you can spend on a specific loadout. If that "soft cap" can be reached fairly quickly there won't be too much of a difference between relatively new players and someone who's been playing for years. Obviously, there will be a few things beyond the "soft cap" until they get to the actual hard cap (100% certification for the loadout), but not necessarily providing enough of an advantage in and of themselves to make enough difference to matter. Beyond that "soft cap" is going into other loadouts (having options gives indirect power but not in a way that unbalances the game as long as those options are equal) or going for that "hard cap" to have a very slight advantage over the general players (but certainly not one limited to pay-players).

ATM it's really really really slow, to the point where you can't keep up with someone getting 30 certs a night for paying a sub, seeing as certs are upgrades.

SOE won't have passive gain's be greater than active gains, and likely won't have them stack. Not only are they interested in balancing the game, but they are interested in selling boosts on top of Subs.

Even if initially a new player can't keep up with a subbed player, the subbed/boosted player will still reach the soft or hard cap allowing the un-subbed to catch up at least within that loadout.

Related note:
I wouldn't be surprised if this was eventually topical to the issue of XP/Certs (Certainly it already is with Boosts): http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/energy-systems

Scopedog · 2012-09-17, 08:00 AM

I'm approving of this direction, and I don't feel planetside will have a big problem with "superior" loadouts. Take aircraft for example if we ignore the current beta state of A2G being to good at everything, infantry, air, and Tanks. Its basically the go to weapon.

But with the buff to G2A its not a huge problem but it enforces team play, it doesn't matter at what time investment you are at, in some situations your gonna be on the loosing side of the stick.

But that's mostly vehicle vs infantry, inf vs inf combat they already are very very close to the perfect balance.

The number 1 reason for this is you can't use every cert at once! It doesn't give a "hardcore" player a unfair advantage as he|she have to carefully choose a few to take in the loadouts. they are allowed more options. I foresee a lot people sticking with for example the starter weapons in most classes, because they are most proficient with them.

Bottom line they have to make money and we want to play this game until they make ps3

I think the team have shown time and time again that they are on the right track, still its always good to air concerns, name one game that have had this amount of back and forth between devs and game community and takes concerns seriously and up front with the direction of the game, awesome

Morsong · 2012-09-17, 09:53 AM

Sounds good to me. Love the long term cert goals. I can see myself playing 2+ yrs still unlocking stuff.

SFJake · 2012-09-17, 02:32 PM

There is no way in hell I'm paying 15$ a month just to keep up with people. But obviously they don't tell us the price. I might pay 5$ a month, top. A permanent option would be a much better one, but if at least the monthly fee isn't ridiculous... Plus, it'll have to include Auraxium.

So yeah, I'm expecting to be skipping on this game big time. I don't care so much that this is Pay to Win, though I wish they'd stop lying about it. All I care about is the price.

Timealude · 2012-09-17, 02:48 PM

Originally Posted by SFJake

There is no way in hell I'm paying 15$ a month just to keep up with people. But obviously they don't tell us the price. I might pay 5$ a month, top. A permanent option would be a much better one, but if at least the monthly fee isn't ridiculous... Plus, it'll have to include Auraxium.

So yeah, I'm expecting to be skipping on this game big time. I don't care so much that this is Pay to Win, though I wish they'd stop lying about it. All I care about is the price.

I still dont get how people think this is pay to win. That whole thread on the beta forums is about that and someone on there brought up a good point, if you dont like it suggest something else. This game isnt set in stone yet they are always looking at feedback from us and they have to make this game profitable some how.

SFJake · 2012-09-17, 02:56 PM

I gave many kind of feedbacks, but its not on my words or anyone else's that SoE will change their business model.

The truth is, the guys behind PS2 are very passionate and want to give us the best and will listen to feedback on the game itself, but whomever decides how to make money has their mind set. Alternative options don't even seem to cross their mind.

I believe the best model for this kind of game would not be a Free to Play model at all, but a Paid game with a limited trial (limited in content, but unlimited in time).

But they're not going to change that, and even smaller suggestions or other payment alternatives will go over their heads just the same.

People still massively hated implants or real time limited boosters, they're not going to change either. I think you can see my point.