Squad Leader abilities and BattleRank

VonLipwig · 2012-10-31, 08:30 AM

Repost from the official forums. I wasn't sure whether to post this in the 'Ideas' section or here, but I settled for here because it's not really a new idea or anything. Still, if any mods think this thread might better be posted there, please don't hesitate to use those modly powers.

http://forums.station.sony.com/ps2/i...tlerank.39297/

In the latest stream, Matt Higby said that (certain) Squad Lead abilities would be tied into BattleRank, meaning you would have to advance a certain amount of levels in order to use some Squad Lead abilities.

Having thought about what that means for gameplay, I'm not sure that is such a good idea.

I do see where the idea originated: in theory, people with higher battleranks are more experienced players, who managed to achieve their battlerank by playing a lot and by playing well. And who better to have leadership abilities than the most skilled and most experienced?

However, this goes counter to what leadership is actually about.

Being a Squad (and Platoon) Leader is about situational awareness and getting your squad where it needs to be. The priority is not to get kills, but to make sure your squad members get kills by positioning them well. Thus, as a squad leader, you will find yourself missing out on experience points since you will be focusing on leading your squad rather than increasing your KDR.

This isn't a big problem for most random/public squads, since a lot of the time those are just groups who kind of stay together but may or may not be all that fussed about positioning and situational awareness; the squad leader does not have such an important role there. However, for organised outfits where the platoon and squad leaders actually perform their role and focus on the big picture, squad leaders might actually lag behind in Battleranks when compared to the soldiers in their squad who get to rake in all the experience points!

Also, some quite capable leaders might not be able to play as often as they'd like, while some people who are really quite clueless when it comes to strategy and tactics play quite a lot, which would end up giving the leadership abilities to the wrong people.

Yes, I do know you still get quite a lot of experience points from successfully capturing a facility, and I also know that squad and platoon leaders will still get the occasional kill. However, I really do believe that those people whose abilities are tied into BattleRanks will be the people who won't be rising in BattleRanks quite as fast as regular players.

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So what can be done to make sure this isn't a problem? There's a few different possibilities:

Give Squad Leaders points for their squad members' actions
This way, SLs and PLs would be able to reap the benefits from their decisions. If they managed to lead their squad into an advantageous position, he will receive points for actions in squad members perform. This will put his BR on par with the pure killing machine he has under his control. Maybe 10xp per kill, 5xp per revive, 1xp per tick of heal/repair/resupply?

Introduce special Leadership Certs and untie SL abilities from BR
Perhaps it would be possible to have the game award successful leadership actions by giving the SL or PL special certs (which can only be spent on the leadership tree) for doing leadery stuff. At the same, disconnect leadership abilities from Battleranks. The special leadership certs would come from friendly actions and base captures and defences in a certain radius around a squad/platoon waypoint. Additionally, perhaps give squad members an experience bonus when fighting within said radius of the waypoint? It would be an extra incentive to keep squads together. Obviously, a platoon waypoint radius would be larger than a squad waypoint radius.

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This is all I have right now, I'll have to think about any other possible ways to make leadership abilities less dependent on playtime and getting kills, and more on doing what a leader should be doing.

Let me know what you guys think, and post here if you have any suggestions!

So yeah, what's your opinions? Feel free to post either here or on the official forums.

Storn · 2012-10-31, 09:05 AM

Bump

I would add... Consider the model World War II uses; Player voted leadership that can post faction wide messages to coordinate attacks/advances.

A squad leader doesn’t lead from the back... How can he know what’s going on without having eyes on.

I have to say that if you’re a leader not getting XP your doing something wrong. Sundy/AMS points stream in if you place your vehicle right. Most coordination occurs using the mini map and information coming in via chat from the squad. Decisions are made on the fly from current on the ground information. No reason a squad leader or outfit CC should be cowering in a corner.

Just my thoughts on what I have experienced as a squad leader and a soldier with boots on the ground. Lead from the front as this game is to fast paced to sit in a corner and look at the map.

VonLipwig · 2012-10-31, 09:29 AM

So how does that WW2 system work? People get voted into leadership positions? Not sure if a popularity contest would be the answer... but it doesn't sound too bad either. It would almost certainly mean that big outfit leader will immediately get into high command positions, and since they do a lot of organising anyway this might not be a bad thing. Still, it would exclude many potentially capable people from entering a command position.

As for SLs who should be able to get lots of kills... well, possibly. I'm sure there are Sls and PLs who manage to lead well from the front and successfully manage their entire squad/platoon while at the same time killing droves of people. I don't usually squadlead but I know that if I'm busy killing I find it hard to articulate my thoughts and/or formulate quick battle plans.

SLs might be more capable of getting plenty of EXP, but the SLs I know tend to hang back a bit (and no, they're not cowering in a corner looking at a map) and think about the next move and get their squad members into positions of opportunity and they generally end up doing the killing while the SL is busy constructing a new plan.

The PL even more so, since he has, in the worst/best case, 4x 12 people to manage. This guy needs to focus on the big picture, and picking off enemies and clearing buildings doesn't help brain functionality much in that regard.

As for Sunderer spawns, I guess you have a point. However, it would have to specifically be the SL or PL who spawns the Sunderer, and since a Sunderer can be spawned by anyone, it's not necessarily the SL or PL who gets that flood of XP.

I thinkt he best way to deal with this though is to give special command EXP to SLs and PLs, based on strategic achievements such as base captures and defences. The XP they receive would depend on how many enemies were present (more enemies = more XP). It would incentivise Sls and PLs to play for the objective as well, and it would specifically reward leadership to people who actually lead, while leading!

In the current system, ANYONE who plays enough can get a high leadership position, without ever even having led a squad!

Dagron · 2012-10-31, 09:38 AM

Awarding XP just for being the SL can be tricky, it could give lazy people a lot of free XP, because there are always a bunch of newbies who just accept any squad invites and stick with it without a second thought.

Storn · 2012-10-31, 10:13 AM

Agreed, it’s very tricky to work out a system to reward dedicated leaders. I’m definitely not a large scale planner and will leave that to those that want/excel at that. A system does need to reward you all for sacrificing action for planning. See you in the field brothers!

VonLipwig · 2012-10-31, 11:04 AM

Yeah, I'll definitely agree that it's tricky. Maybe make it so that it only rewards actively squad management? Ie, SLs and PLs get bonus EXP (either special command XP or general XP) only there is a waypoint on or near the base that is taken, and only if a certain amount or percentage of squad members is actually present at that location?

Though that might make the system very hard to manage and code... I'm not sure if they can actually detect any of these things. They probably can, but I can't be certain.

Bottom line though, Sls and PLs do need to be compensated for any lack of kills or other EXP income that other people who are more focused on the fighting itself might have, otherwise you'll get Sls and PLs who are lagging behind other players in terms of BR.

Fear The Amish · 2012-10-31, 05:01 PM

as a regular tac com for XoO i get plenty of xp. From sundie spawns to base caps and repairs/heals i just make sure i pull one of the sundies (think of it as tribute) i then designate someone else as a driver. between those things i do fine.

Dagron · 2012-10-31, 05:25 PM

How do you designate another driver? I thought it wasn't possible yet.

Fear The Amish · 2012-10-31, 07:55 PM

Hit N and lock to squad/platoon only and anyone else can drive it.

Dagron · 2012-10-31, 08:53 PM

Cool, i didn't think it was possible, every time i did that in a random squad no one took off with my bus.

SixShooter · 2012-10-31, 09:21 PM

I was a bit dissapointed that CEP did not make a return. It would have been nice to see squad leader XP separated out and giving leadership certs only to the ones doing the leading. I know this was pretty easy to exploit in PS1 and it was not too hard to get to CR5 but it would still have been nice to see the separation there.

LexDecon · 2012-10-31, 09:41 PM

Originally Posted by VonLipwig

So how does that WW2 system work? People get voted into leadership positions? Not sure if a popularity contest would be the answer... but it doesn't sound too bad either. It would almost certainly mean that big outfit leader will immediately get into high command positions, and since they do a lot of organising anyway this might not be a bad thing. Still, it would exclude many potentially capable people from entering a command position.

In WWII Online, High Command is actually a player driven system supported by the game devs.

How it works.

First step is you as a player want to be part of high command. You have to apply to become a Cadet, Once your accepted as a Cadet you go to the High Command Academy.

This academy is basically designed to teach you the New High Command Cadet the ins and outs of large scale leadership. As you go through the leadership training you get assigned to a battalion.

These Battalions are actually based on "sectors" within the game since WWII Online is very linear in its approach to its map. Basically the map is a one level map with a "campaign" .

Once your assigned to a Battalion you focus on establishing its functions, be it attack points, defend points, etc. You help with other new cadets, you can be assigned in different roles to support the High Command be them Liasion officer, Recruitment Officer, Logistical Officer etc.

High command itself, the "guy in charge" for that campaign is voted on by the player base. How they eliminate the "popularity" contest is limit the Vote to only those individuals in the high command with the proper training and requirements and time to be High Command. This individual stays as the High Commander "Guy in charge" usually for one Campaign, which ends when either the Axis or the Allied side controls the map fully.

How does high command work with individual outfits?

Well basically the High Command sets up an over all "Operations plan" with objectives etc. Outfits that want to be involved with the High Command designate themselves as such and they can follow through with tasks assigned or they can simply follow the Strategy put down by the High Command. It was never a requirement to "follow the High Command". But it was always highly recommended, and Most outfits and individuals all found that following the High Commands Strategy lead to a more enjoyable game.

Now this system may have changed its been a few years since I was in WWII online or involved with the High Command.

Do I think that this system can work in Planetside 2? Yes. It would need some adjustments etc. But it would definitely work, by establishing a high command for each faction, per server.

Would it take some work? Yes. High Command is not an "alliance". Its not a bunch of outfits "agreeing" to work together. Its outfits agreeing to follow a core group of individuals in an over all strategy and command.

It is not an Outfit giving up its freedom or ability to operate independently.

Personally I would love to see something like this developed by the players and set up. The WWII Online High Command community was awesome. They developed award systems to give to players for outstanding service, rank system to promote within. Training systems for not only individuals but outfits. It made the game so much more then just a FPS with some Strategy.

It would take alot of work. And alot of dedication but in the end I fully feel it would be EXTREMELY worth the time and effort to get this going. It would have its issues and problems just like anything else. BUT its a workable system. And it was supported by the game dev's but not run by the game dev's.

Basically the Game Dev's stated "We approve of this. Go forth and continue" but thats all they did, so it gave it credibility with the player base.

My thoughts on making squad leader ship abilities based on battlerank.. I dont like it. The best squad leader in the world could be a BR1, and not have the ability to use the Tools of the Squad leader. Thats just punishing those who want to focus on outfit leadership more then running around making kills.

Yes you can get a good amount of XP easily, but a good squad leader actually spends less time firing their weapon and more time observing and supporting and moving their squad.

Just my two cents. If any one is interested in setting up a High command or something along those lines. I'll help. Sign me up.