Sunderer AMS made defense more pointless

[Rothnang]

One of the really big things that I don't like about this game in its current form is that base defense is pretty pointless, when a mess of enemies come rolling your way you pretty much have a choice between being a speedbump at the expense of your KDR or just going somewhere else.

It occurred to me that this is really a phenomenon that got much worse with Sunderer spawning. Of course Galaxy spawning had its downsides, you could completely ignore front lines and defenses, and just drop a spawn point anywhere you wanted pretty much. Also a parked Galaxy with 3, 4 engineers huddled behind it was damn near impossible to take out.

Sunderer spawning changed that, but it also changed something else: A Sunderer can be pulled from pretty much any terminal anywhere in the game, so destroying a Sunderer means next to nothing. The opponent can have anotherone ready within seconds. Galaxies are more expensive, can only be pulled from a small number of terminals, and have a longer cooldown timer, so destroying the enemy Galaxy spawnpoint was more meaningful.

The real cost of Sunderer AMS in that regard is simply that there is just no way to send a Zerg packing. Sunderers can be replaced so rapidly that you can never effectively wear down their capability to spawn in new troops. Blow up one Sunderer, there is likely another one just waiting to take its place. Even if you kill them all, the next random outpost over can make some more.

I honestly think that AMS needs to be harder to come by. Requiring it to spawn at the warp gate or tech plants made a big difference, because it meant that having one far away from your base was meaningful. It took time to get it there, and losing it could actually jeopardize your advance.

Maybe we need a new vehicle that does the AMSing, something big and unwieldy that is like the Galaxy of ground warfare. Comes from tech plants and warp gates only...

[Sifer2]

Totally agree. I personally think Tanks/Sunderers/Liberators, and their gunner ammo should only be able to be pulled from bases. Towers should only offer Lightnings/ESF's, and Outposts nothing but the Flash again.

A zerg of Infantry is one thing. It can be stopped but a zerg of Tanks, and AMS is pretty much unstoppable if your outnumbered. Making them have drive back from the last base would at least slow them down an make killing them more meaningful.

It's crazy to me that not only do some people not find the Sundy spam a problem but they keep complaining about the deploy radius too.

[Rothnang]

Lightning and ESF is IMO only symetrical in price, fighters are absolutely superb vehicles that have the capacity to kill anything by themselves, inclusing vehicles with multiple crew. People will specialize in to the point where they get butthurt if the game ever presents a situation where they can't fly one 100% of the time. Lightnings on the other hand are pretty much a joke vehicle that nobody considers worth pulling unless you either really want Skyguard or you can't get an MBT for whatever reason. They lack the ability to defeat an MBT one on one, cannot be equipped with multiple weapons for engaging all targets, have very few meaningful upgrades, and generally are just in no way the tankers equivalent to a fighter.

[brinkdadrink]

I am conflicted on this point.

I agree that there are still to many AMS sundies a lot of the time. The distance limit helped but it didnt limit the number. This goes back to specializing because anyone can have an AMS sundy with very little certs (I think it was 10 when I got it).

I like them together but maybe make it:
A) more expensive certs to get
B) make it only only mountable at large facilities
C) cost more resources when adding the ams on

I personally am for A and C but also lower the distance between sundys down some (only like 10-20m) because its to large at the moment. large outposts you can get 1 and then maybe a second in a horrible position. By adding A and C you will limit the number of sundies. I choose C but would go for B instead some times when resources are really hard to come by. (side note idea - make vehicles cheaper if pulled from large facilities, it would make them even more important).

Please make the Sundy cheaper without ams on it. Its a squad transport vehicle that does very little damage comparably to other vehicles and helps get people in squads to the battle in a team fashion.

[Bags]

I like having sundies vs no sundies.

[EZero]

Sundies wouldn't be so bad if there was a universal queue time.

So instead of whenever someone dies they spawn with their own 5-6 second timer, people queue up at the sunderer in the spawn menu. Only 1 will spawn every 5 seconds. That or it can be wave based but with a longer interval, like 30 seconds.

I think the first solution is superior though, because it makes the attackers make more tactical pushes, like holding back at the AMS until they have enough people. Instead of just streaming in one by one and getting slaughtered.

[Rothnang]

I don't think high cert cost should ever be considered a balancing factor. Cert costs always have to be viewed as an entirely separate entity that serves purely to offer the player a sense of progression and a reward for playing.

[Sifer2]

Originally Posted by Rothnang

Lightning and ESF is IMO only symetrical in price, fighters are absolutely superb vehicles that have the capacity to kill anything by themselves, inclusing vehicles with multiple crew. People will specialize in to the point where they get butthurt if the game ever presents a situation where they can't fly one 100% of the time. Lightnings on the other hand are pretty much a joke vehicle that nobody considers worth pulling unless you either really want Skyguard or you can't get an MBT for whatever reason. They lack the ability to defeat an MBT one on one, cannot be equipped with multiple weapons for engaging all targets, have very few meaningful upgrades, and generally are just in no way the tankers equivalent to a fighter.

I agree with ESF being superior to Lightning since an ESF with pods can currently kill anything. Where as a Lightning must specialize. But the Lightning is actually pretty good with the specialist weapons. The HE cannon wrecks Infantry, and the AV one they added fairly late in beta does hurt. It's weaker than a MBT but that's why I suggested letting it be pulled at towers, and Tanks only from base. Probably a shorter timer too. But then I also sided with the group thinking MBT's should probably go back to being 2 man crew required vehicles. And the devs disagree since they are still in the BFR mind of thinking with one man MBT's, and ESF's that do everything. Shame as it was that which ultimately ruined PS1.

[Dreamcast]

I love the Sunderer now than what it was in the beggining.


Right now, you're closer to action unlike back in August during the beta where you spawned so far away.


You mention that it makes defense pointless....No it doesn't......I have seen defense push these Sunderers back.


I wouldn't mind having the real AMS comeback as is own vehicle tho

[Buggsy]

Actually a cloaked AMS that isn't "Big and wieldy" but smaller than the sunderer, would greatly help improve defense.

Any attempt to nerf the Sunderer into uselessness makes the zerg actually stronger. If you're facing 3:1 odds, instead of facing a bunch of infantry you'll face a bunch of tanks and rocketpods. Guess what, you actually made your situation worse.

People like you think too selfishly, "I destroyed that sunderer, therefore I should have won the battle all by myself."

[Rothnang]

Originally Posted by Sifer2

And the devs disagree since they are still in the BFR mind of thinking with one man MBT's, and ESF's that do everything. Shame as it was that which ultimately ruined PS1.

I wouldn't mind the fighters as they currently are if they had two crew members.

If you look at the Liberator as the MBT of the sky and then you realize that a fighter with rocket pods can smack them out of the sky like its nothing - and Liberators actually do need at least 2 crewmembers to unlock let's say 95% of its potential - and then you compare that to Lightning vs MBT where the MBT steamrolls the lightning even with just one driver, it's pretty obvious that fighters are overpowered, regardless of what Smed thinks.

Originally Posted by Buggsy

Any attempt to nerf the Sunderer into uselessness makes the zerg actually stronger. If you're facing 3:1 odds, instead of facing a bunch of infantry you'll face a bunch of tanks and rocketpods. Guess what, you actually made your situation worse.

Tanks and Fighters are actually gone when you knock them out though, they don't come back in 8 seconds. Sure, fighting a bunch of tanks and fighters really sucks when you get spawcamped and have no means of pulling anything that can adequately oppose them, but at least there is a beginning and an end to an attack made with tanks and fighters.

Originally Posted by Buggsy

People like you think too selfishly, "I destroyed that sunderer, therefore I should have won the battle all by myself."

I don't really know why you think that. I just said that destroying spawning vehicles was more meaningful when they couldn't be replaced in seconds. It's not about winning or losing battles by blowing up one single thing, it's just a question of whether or not you can actually destroy enough of the enemies material to make their offensive fail.

[KaskaMatej]

It was stupid when they allowed for Sunderers to be pulled at any vehicle terminal... A the beginning of the last day of beta, a squad of us was trying to defend an outpost. They had hacked terminal so 12 people was able to pull out S-AMS. Not all at once, but one by one, destroy one, they get another, and so on, not to mention they had 3 engineers with it so if you haven't destroy it in one go, it was repaired in few seconds.

Bloody annoying to cripple the defence this, or better put, making the offence so much easier.

[Dreamcast]

Originally Posted by KaskaMatej

It was stupid when they allowed for Sunderers to be pulled at any vehicle terminal... A the beginning of the last day of beta, a squad of us was trying to defend an outpost. They had hacked terminal so 12 people was able to pull out S-AMS. Not all at once, but one by one, destroy one, they get another, and so on, not to mention they had 3 engineers with it so if you haven't destroy it in one go, it was repaired in few seconds.

Bloody annoying to cripple the defence this, or better put, making the offence so much easier.

Engineers need to be nerfed....They heal way too fast.


I also think Engineering shouldn't stack completly so if 3 people are repairing the same thing then they shouldn't repair it super fast.

[basti]

Aye, the real problem is that Sundys can be pulled everywhere. It shouldnt be that way, not at all.

[Sturmhardt]

Yup, they are a little bit TOO easy to pull. They should switch it back so that you can only spawn sunderers at bases again and see if that helps. I love em and I'm gonna really cert into the Sunderer, but there are too many of them.