How the low TTK neuters possible weapon variety

gunshooter · 2013-01-13, 05:38 AM

So I decided to get back into making Youtube gaming videos with horrible voiceovers (i'm not very good at them, as you can see) and what better way to do it than with videos about PS2. I'm going to be making a video series about the choices made during development and how they make a lot of the changes that people ask for just not possible without some large sweeping changes.

Obviously i'm no game designer but it doesn't take one to see the problems that SOE got themselves into with some of the decisions they made, like the battlefield-esque TTK/gameplay and the lack of any meaningful limitations on vehicle and aircraft spawning, just for some examples, and these are the types of things i'll be talking about, rather than things that people on the forums generally complain about, such as VS/TR vs NC weapons and the effectiveness of Anti-Air, which are things that can be fixed with numbers tweaks rather than any kind of extensive redesign.

Next video will be about where the core vehicle design failed and how what we were stuck with have could be improved without a ground-up redesign.

Some people on the official forums have some misconceptions about what I meant by "weapon variety," so i'm cut+pasting my replies to them here in case anyone doesn't understand:

Originally Posted by softgrip, post: 1014233, member: 92285

GD-7F - the full auto pull goes up and left. Makes a huge difference. You have to learn the bullet spread.

Kind of like 80% of other carbines which have the exact same recoil pattern (sometimes to the right instead of left, though.) A different recoil pattern doesn't magically make a weapon "unique." It just changes which way you drag your mouse when firing full auto. Variety would be something truly unique, such as the MCG or Lasher if they didn't need to be kept useless for the sake of game balance.

Originally Posted by Koadster, post: 1014234, member: 42761

BF3 has a similair low TTK, and each of its 70+ weapons all feel unique..

Havent tested alot of other faction guns but TR, you can tell difference between the T1 vs TRV vs SABR13 vs TAR, Carv vs TMG50 vs MSW-R. The differences arent as profound as BF3s weapon variety but its there.

Again, the difference in "feeling" in weapons in this game is nothing compared to many other games.

This game has 3 important differences on automatic weapons:

1: Recoil sways to the left

2: Recoil sways to the right

3: Recoil goes straight up

Taking a fully automatic weapon, tweaking some numbers values (rof, cone of fire, damage, velocity etc) and then tacking on one of 3 set recoil patterns is not variety. At their core, the recoil is the only thing that changes how a weapon actually feels. Aside from that, they all play the exact same way.

For example, take a recent addition to the game, the TR Jaguar carbine. This gun is the Lynx Carbine with recoil that goes upwards instead of rightwards, some minor numbers tweaks that no one will ever notice, and 50RPM. The choice between these 2 guns is simply "Do you prefer your recoil go up or to the right" because nothing else is of any consequence at all.

Other people havent picked up on it because people do feel variety. I always hear on outfit chat people comparing guns and telling eachother how different guns preform differently.

Different guns performing differently has nothing to do with variety. Minor stat differences and a choice out of the 3 recoil patterns isn't variety. Variety is an entirely different type of weapon, which this game doesn't have for the reasons I outlined in this video - while its predecessor, by most accounts, did.

ringring · 2013-01-13, 05:59 AM

Yep.

The thing to also note that the jackhammer and the MCG and the lasher were situational and different to each other.

Very close the JH wins. A bit farther away the MCG wins and the lasher was in the middle with also the lasher as a suppression weapon.

Example, if you're in a tower and a NC is on the top of a flight of stairs (comparative distance would be a about the same as the stairs in the main building of a tech, those stairs from the ground floor that has one flight then a turn then another flight.)
Anyway, a person with a JH at the top against a person with a mcg at the bottom - the mcg would win but if the mcg person move up to half way it puts them into the JH sweet spot and the JH wins, or should.

I should say that it happens that last night I was saying about how I didn't worry about the JH or in fact any of the shotguns and int PS1 I certainly would and did.

In fact if I suspected a person with a JH was at the top of that flight of stairs and around the corner in a PS1 tower I probably wouldn't go up, I'd just wait for an advantage to me to emerge.

Sturmhardt · 2013-01-13, 06:10 AM

Yup... with TTKs that low we will not see many new weapons that make sense. Well... I don't care, there is enough variety already if you ask me (not visual, but from the stats), but SOE could have earned some extra cash with it. I guess they chose not to.

gunshooter · 2013-01-13, 06:17 AM

Originally Posted by Sturmhardt

Yup... with TTKs that low we will not see many new weapons that make sense. Well... I don't care, there is enough variety already if you ask me (not visual, but from the stats), but SOE could have earned some extra cash with it. I guess they chose not to.

They're already earning extra cash by releasing weapons that just plain outclass older weapons which had the same situational benefit. IE: Jaguar vs Lynx, Cycler TRV vs TAR (which, shamefully, came with a nerf to the TRV in the same patch)

Ghoest9 · 2013-01-13, 09:48 AM

I like the low TTK because it rewards shooting over dancing.

gunshooter · 2013-01-13, 09:53 AM

Originally Posted by Ghoest9

I like the low TTK because it rewards shooting over dancing.

Whatever reason you like or dislike it, the overall ttk discussion has been done to death and that's not why I made this video. Even adding 1 second to the current average ttk would drastically increase the flexibility the devs would have with weapon balance.

Of course it might be a bit too late for that now.

hashish · 2013-01-13, 09:54 AM

This is so true, very very sad that they have such a low ttk. I mean i dont mind low ttk, im used to it, and do very well in planetside 2 right now..

But it limits the variety BIGTIME which sucks..

Crator · 2013-01-13, 09:55 AM

Yeah, I agree with the OP. It's odd they did have this fast of a TTK since they have many different weapons they have up for sale for real money and yet there isn't that much of a noticeable difference between them...

Guess it's part of the F2P formula though. Trying to avoid pay-to-win.

Ghoest9 · 2013-01-13, 10:02 AM

Also I would say that a GD-7F, a Mercenary and a AC-X11 all have a distinctly different feel completely separate from the direction of recoil.

The real issue is that so many guns are by design derivations of a base weapons.

The mercenary, the razor the Gauss burst and Gauss S are all supposed to be variations on a base weapon and they feel like it.

gunshooter · 2013-01-13, 10:09 AM

Originally Posted by Ghoest9

Also I would say that a GD-7F, a Mercenary and a AC-X11 all have a distinctly different feel completely separate from the direction of recoil.

The real issue is that so many guns are by design derivations of a base weapons.

The mercenary, the razor the Gauss burst and Gauss S are all supposed to be variations on a base weapon and they feel like it.

Every gun I use in this game plays the same way.

1) Hipfire at very close range
2) ADS and full auto fire past close range
3) After a certain point (different with each gun), burst fire or fire full auto and pause for a moment to reset COF.

We obviously have different ideas of what a variation is. For me, it would be a totally different weapon, or at least a unique take on something we already have. Instead its just recoil pattern and sliders to the left or right. I know this is the standard in modern FPS games, but that doesn't mean it's ideal. Variation is fun and a TTK this low (TTK can still be low without being 500ms!) limits us to small variations like the ones you talked about rather than actual unique weapons.

Ghoest9 · 2013-01-13, 10:14 AM

The problem is you arent using NC weapons - we have variation.

most TR guns are basically the same as other TR guns.

Sledgecrushr · 2013-01-13, 10:16 AM

I guess you can please some of the people some of the time... Personally I enjoy the gunplay and I find variation in every weapon that I use.

gunshooter · 2013-01-13, 10:20 AM

Originally Posted by Ghoest9

The problem is you arent using NC weapons - we have variation.

most TR guns are basically the same as other TR guns.

Not really. NC plays the same way, the difference is you need to start burst firing at closer ranges. I've used the TMG-50 which is "Gauss SAW but worse in every way" and it played the same as a Carv or MSW-R or any other full auto weapon, the only big difference is that it was less powerful at close-mid range (this is not a playstyle difference, this is a weapon stat difference) and that it required burst fire starting at closer range while moving.

That you notice your gun firing slower or hitting more shots doesn't change the functionality of the weapon.

Originally Posted by Sledgecrushr

I guess you can please some of the people some of the time... Personally I enjoy the gunplay and I find variation in every weapon that I use.

I don't mind the gameplay. It's fun and I do very well despite usually not being great at fps games, maintaining 3 or 4:1 KD as HA. But the problems it brings that I outlined in the OP lead to repetitive and boring gameplay. Bored of using a weapon? Your options are other weapons that play the same way. Have fun.

Ghoest9 · 2013-01-13, 10:46 AM

Originally Posted by gunshooter

Not really. NC plays the same way, the difference is you need to start burst firing at closer ranges. I've used the TMG-50 which is "Gauss SAW but worse in every way" and it played the same as a Carv or MSW-R or any other full auto weapon, the only big difference is that it was less powerful at close-mid range (this is not a playstyle difference, this is a weapon stat difference) and that it required burst fire starting at closer range while moving.

That you notice your gun firing slower or hitting more shots doesn't change the functionality of the weapon.

1 You just made my case.
Some NC guns require different play styles than TR weapons while others play very similar to the average TR weapon.

2 By the end you basically seem to be complaining that shooting guns at people is the universal theme of an FPS. Well yes pointing guns at enemies and pulling the trigger does kill them - maybe you should try knives.

Your case has fallen apart.

gunshooter · 2013-01-13, 11:15 AM

Originally Posted by Ghoest9

1 You just made my case.
Some NC guns require different play styles than TR weapons while others play very similar to the average TR weapon.

2 By the end you basically seem to be complaining that shooting guns at people is the universal theme of an FPS. Well yes pointing guns at enemies and pulling the trigger does kill them - maybe you should try knives.

Your case has fallen apart.

Apparently randomly proclaiming yourself as the victor of an argument twice in one post automatically means you've won. Congratulations.

What actually happened is that clearly your standards are what constitutes a unique weapon are much, much, much lower than mine. So far lower, infact, that any further dialogue with you is completely pointless. I suggest you broaden your FPS horizon and play some games where weapons are not simple stat variance but have actual differences in functionality to truly understand just how boring and bland the PS2 armory is.