Spec Ops vs Shocktroops

NewSith · 2013-01-13, 05:42 PM

Since I didn't want to hijack the thread about BCP and /lead chat, I created this thread.

What made me start this thread:

Originally Posted by NewSith

Originally Posted by Dkamanus

Originally Posted by NewSith

Originally Posted by Duskguy

@newsith, you realize a 5 man squad can do just as much as a 12 man squad in many situations right? especially when people are ignoring the side bases, as buzzcut did (the VS took side bases to avoid being warp gated).

5 man squad cannot. Just for comparison, few minutes ago we were holding Eisa Horizontal Gen with 11 people against a massive VS zerg. Once our number dried up to 5 we pretty much lost it.

2-6 people squad cannot impact the battlefild when it comes to fighting, that's the poiint. As for ghostcapping and fighting a 5v5 skirmishes on BL4 Crash, they do not exactly contribute much, since their effort gets instantly neutralized by any larger force.

In other words - let's compare the scales per Empire:
5/133 = ~3.75%
5/666 = ~0.75%
..and per continent:
5/399 = ~1.25%
5/1998 = ~0,25%

Here's blatant statistic, and it shows many things.

Strange. From my 18 man squad I send 6 to go cap Mani Biolab while the rest was in Andvari, holding the VS. They ended up getting the Biolab from the TR and we from the VS.

Smaller squads can't change the battles? Unlikely. Off course, if you suck at map assessment and your team mates can't be counted on, then that's the case.

That's ghosthacking, since I'm absolutely sure your six guys weren't countered by 15-20 more or less organized TR.

You see - I am not saying small squads are worthless and everybody who is in one is a noob. On the contrary 8 of my people successfuly turned the tide of a massive biolab fight by taking a tactical flanking meneuver around the SCU Shield Gen building and clearing it out, just yesterday or day before. However on a strategical scheme of things, small squads can do nothing, but ghosthack.

PS:

Code:

Strategy is the utilization, during both peace and war, of all of a nation's forces, through large-scale, long-range planning and development, to ensure security or victory. Tactics is the military science that deals with securing objectives set by strategy, especially the technique of deploying and directing troops, ships, and aircraft in effective maneuvers against an enemy.

In other words - Strategy = Plan, Tactics = Execution of the plan, in case you guys don't know the difference.

What's the point:
As we know PS2 didn't come shipped with the designs required for PlanetSide 1 Spec Ops teams to do their job. Their traditional jobs included Continent Backhacks, Providing Cave Links/Modules, NTU Drains, Genholds. PlanetSide 2 took that away, along with the strategical worth of small outfits and as a result - many of PS1 Spec Ops outfits had to requalify into shocktroops.

PlanetSide Spec Ops: An outfit perfoming an action of strategical significance, utilizing sophisticated tactics, working generally alone.
PlanetSide Shocktroops: An outfit perfoming an action of lesser strategical significance, utilizing unconventional tactics to spearhead an assault by main zerg.

This is what I observed through many ex-Spec Ops outfits - you either grow, to be able to work as a standalone group or you become shocktroops. MercenaryS have performed quite a few of successful operations of that sort (including Eisa takeover today, that was later overrun by 252 and then blatantly declared to be their doing), but the problem is - I myself, and many of my outfit mates do not enjoy this kind of play. It just turns into "advanced zerging", and I am not exactly fond of such way.

Bottomline (TL;DR):
@Ex-Spec Ops people - Once (if) Spec Ops opportunities reemerge, will you retain the role of Spec Ops or remain Shocktroopers?

p0intman · 2013-01-13, 06:12 PM

NC Covert Ops/Fast Response forever. I'm a huge advocate for more specialised targets like old style gen holds and base drains. I don't like doing shock trooper shit if I can avoid it.

my favorite shit in ps1 was going into a hot base being hacked by the enemy and sneaking in to bring tubes and gen up ahed of the resecure teams, all while having an orange alert around me. uncloaked. in agile. with a sweeper.

LoliLoveFart · 2013-01-13, 06:23 PM

If spec ops style play returns I will be all over that like the NC is all over hamburgers.
The zerg here zerg there style gameplay is getting really dry really fast. It is a shame that we won't see any massive gameplay shakeups for a while but hopefully they are in the pipes.

p0intman · 2013-01-13, 06:28 PM

Originally Posted by LoliLoveFart

If spec ops style play returns I will be all over that like the NC is all over hamburgers.

Join the NC. We have these. Fuckyeah.

Saintlycow · 2013-01-13, 06:32 PM

Game favors the zerg too much. Sure smaller groups of people can be effective, but a large squad can do it quicker. Unless it's steath. In which case IRNV screws you over anyhow

You roll a squad of 6, I roll a squad of 12.

You can cap 1 base, I can cap 2.

I also have a 2 to 1 advantage against you in direct combat.

The game needs more things for small groups to do.

StumpyTheOzzie · 2013-01-13, 07:00 PM

In the good old days, one person could stop the enemy from fielding all their advanced weapons with a few well placed boomers. All you had to do was drop the next gen in the lattice.

Nowadays, everyone can bring anything at anytime. Maxes can be bought at AMSes (instead of towers and bases only) any vehicle can be pulled pretty much from any base terminal.

If the VS don't have a tech plant, they can still have magriders. Liberators are always around. There are no strategic "denial" games we can play. So in that sense, small bands are basically powerless compared to PS1.

Having said that, it only takes 2 to liberate. So they can be quite powerful at the same time. a squad of 6 can have 3 liberators up most of the time, or 2 full libs pretty much all the time.

bpostal · 2013-01-13, 08:08 PM

I think that is an accurate statement of what has occurred in a good number of situations/outfits.
I personally like both styles of gameplay. I think of stormtrooping as more of a tactical playstyle and spec-ops type shit is more strategic. Both are important. I would love to see spec-ops play become more important and enabled beyond what is currently available.

Figment · 2013-01-13, 08:50 PM

We've always been a special ops, infiltration, fast response, lightning rod and zergherder outfit.

Ghoest9 · 2013-01-13, 09:32 PM

Theres a lot of people who call small teams hack "ghost hacking and a lot of people who are against "ghost hacking".

Its just whining.
Its unfortunate when huuge zergs roll over essentially empty bases because no one wants to defend - but thats a different issue.

Small teams caping small bases is big part of the Panetside experience and should be embraced.

BIGGByran · 2013-01-13, 10:30 PM

You guys talking about this made me think about:

I wish that MBT were slower and lightning tanks are much faster than MBT. So if you could imagen a spec -ops team rolling with Flash and Lightning tanks because they are quick and very mobile

VS

The main force with consist of MBT, Sunders, Galaxies, and the heavy troops, MAXs etc.

Small, light and fast hitting VS Big, "heavy" and hard hitting.

p0intman · 2013-01-13, 10:41 PM

Originally Posted by BIGGByran

You guys talking about this made me think about:

I wish that MBT were slower and lightning tanks are much faster than MBT. So if you could imagen a spec -ops team rolling with Flash and Lightning tanks because they are quick and very mobile

VS

The main force with consist of MBT, Sunders, Galaxies, and the heavy troops, MAXs etc.

Small, light and fast hitting VS Big, "heavy" and hard hitting.

see, exactly. I'd love to actually have a use for mass atv swarms like you'd see in beta, guys running between bases and striking unpredictably on them like pissed off hornets.

victthoe · 2013-01-13, 10:49 PM

It just turns into "advanced zerging", and I am not exactly fond of such way.

NewSith · 2013-01-14, 04:10 AM

Originally Posted by Ghoest9

Theres a lot of people who call small teams hack "ghost hacking and a lot of people who are against "ghost hacking".

Its just whining.
Its unfortunate when huuge zergs roll over essentially empty bases because no one wants to defend - but thats a different issue.

Small teams caping small bases is big part of the Panetside experience and should be embraced.

You misinterprete the negativity towards ghosthacking - many outfits (especially ex-Spec Ops ones) don't like ghosthacking, not from the perspective of a resec team (since PS1, aswell as PS2, thankfully does not cause whack-a-mole on a massive scale). Their dissatisfaction has more to do with them participating in ghosthacks. And ghosthacks are not exactly fun part to play. In PS2 ghosthacking changed slighly, due to the larger scale of the game and higher skillgap between players. So now, in PS2, even if there's some resistance on a hex, it can still be considered a ghosthack, even if there are just 6 people attacking and even 5 people defending.

Figment · 2013-01-14, 04:57 AM

In 5 vs 5, attacker wins if they get overwatch on the spawnroom, which they always can because there are five million ways to get there and only two ways to get out.

I'm curious for the new spawnbuildings, but I suspect they are still not centralised with internal CC and SCU. As long as we have to go outside to get to the CC, we will have camping issues. But at least the new higher and more exits/fortified balcony should give a chance to clear out the terrain around the direct spawn building.

Let us hope it does that.

Scorpion Six · 2013-01-14, 09:16 AM

Hey guys I keep reading in this post about "if spec ops game play comes back". ITS HERE MAN! Believe me when I say this, the spec ops guys in my outfit have saved the day several times since their training ended and they started legit ops with the outfit.
Please please please dont think that there are no spec ops opportunities out there. Come to Mattherson, speak with our outfit lead DATHNIC. Ask him about the Ghost squad. He doesnt know everything but he HAS seen the results from the training we do. I may even be open to training other outfits Spec Ops squads.
We use ONLY use 6 guys btw and we have decisively affected an enemy engagement several times over. IT CAN BE DONE.

Scorpion Six (Covenant - in game Mattherson)