[Vid] Air vs Ground Balance Opinion/Feedback

GrmlZ · 2013-01-23, 09:31 AM

Hi
So,since we had a few Air vs ground changes lately i though i make a little vid giving my feedback on Air vs Ground balance in general.

Rothnang · 2013-01-23, 09:34 PM

I think it's a pretty solid analysis of the state of the game you have there, but in all honesty, what makes ground vs. air balance so annoying in this game is simply the fact that there is absolutely no interesting gameplay that emerges from anti air fire for the pilots.

If you're in an ESF in a region that has plenty of mountains or canyons you can have some fun even with AA in the area, because you can dive in and out of their firing zones. The only thing that really puts a damper on enjoying yourself there is that it takes much longer to land and repair an aircraft than it does to hop out of a tank to repair, and you need to repair it much more often since the damage you take from even just a second of AA fire is pretty severe.

If you're in a Liberator though it's just gotten boring. You can't really go low, you don't have the kind of speed and maneuverability you need to survive for any length of time, and you're much too vulnerable to other Liberators and ESFs if you're low to to the ground. Also the belly gun just doesn't really perform well when you're going really low, since your gunner won't really be able to hit a lot of targets.

Flying high is really boring though, there is nothing to frame your flight experience at all, just empty air all around and you get attacked by giant cones of bullets that you can't really effectively dodge. (Not to mention, when you start to dodge in a Liberator your gunner will have a hard time)

I personally think the design for air vs. ground balance is just bad. It's the one instance in this game where it just doesn't feel like its a real contest of skill, but just a contest of numbers. When AA opens up on you there isn't anything you can do but say a little prayer for mr. hitpoints and start going the other way. If you survive you repair, rinse and repeat, and if you don't there is really no way to effectively operate in that area for the time being anyways.

I really think there needs to be a bit more interesting gameplay between aircraft and AA.

Aircraft should have shields maybe, because that way it would actually be rewarding to get out of the AA fire fast, as opposed to right now where taking a tiny little bit of flak or taking a total wallop makes no difference, because it's the running and landing that takes up the time for repairs, not the actual HP you need to restore.

Having some clouds in the sky would be a huge improvement, because it would give you something to hide behind, instead of just being stuck in an empty expanse where distance is the only thing that matters.

Maybe AA weapons need to be changed around so that you can actually actively dodge them, right now you can't really talk about "dodging" with any weapon like that, because dodging implies you saw the projectile coming and moved out of the way, but that's not what you're doing against AA, you're just moving around in a way that makes you a harder target.

Generally speaking smaller clips but higher fire rate would do AA good, because it would be more rewarding for people who hit right away and not have such an extreme normalizing effect by giving people plenty of time to adjust their fire.

Perhaps aircraft could have some kind of visual stealth option, where you can't see them very easily from the ground if they are moving really slowly.

I just really want some interesting gameplay out of the air vs. ground battles, right now it's just boring, there is simply nothing there that really lets people shine on either side. You can't be a really good AA gunner who's feared and respected and useful on his own, because AA fire normalizes so much. As a pilot you constantly just feel like you can't do anything to actually avoid damage except just get out of range as quickly as possible, which is especially boring if you fly high where there isn't anything to frame your movement.

AlsiC · 2013-01-24, 10:12 AM

good stuff.

Memeotis · 2013-01-24, 11:29 AM

+1

Thorough and reasonable critique. I've been writing my own threads complaining about the whole air-ground and air-air dynamic in this game. And while I think things could be done by tweaking the damage of certain weapons, much more could be done if SOE were to turn the ESF into two vehicles.

These are my two threads:
http://www.planetside-universe.com/s...ad.php?t=51188
http://forums.station.sony.com/ps2/i.../#post-1051482

And I think from just watching your video, one of my big concerns are highlighted. You mention it yourself (sort of) when you show yourself killing tanks. I don't think the problem is that you can swoop down and kill a tank in one go, my problem is that can come in extremely fast, kill it, and boost away at the first sight of trouble. If the ESFs weren't able to move the way they do, we wouldn't have that problem.

I propose in my other threads that the ESF needs to be split into two vehicles, one vehicle that is pre-dominantly air-to-air (a jet-like aircraft), designed for keeping the skies clear, which should also balance out the liberator problem somewhat. And a second vehicle, which should be able to kill a tank rapidly, but should be much slower moving, thus easier to detect as it approaches, and easier to catch when it tries to escape. A hovercraft, essentially. A vehicle with strong air-to-ground firepower, but restricted in terms of speed.

Rothnang · 2013-01-24, 06:06 PM

I would like it if there was an aircraft that's more explicitly designed for lurking near the ground and operating like a real life gunship like the Apache, but I don't think the game would seriously benefit from another single seat aircraft.

I mean where would that leave the Liberator? In Beta nobody used a Liberator because even a single ESF had more firepower. If there is another specialized ground attack craft that is more fun to fly and only takes one person we'll go back to that most likely.

I think the game needs more multi-seat vehicles if anything, because that should have always been the primary balancing factor for vehicles - the fact that you simply cannot ever have as many vehicles as you can have infantry because it takes more players to run a vehicle. As of right now the ONLY vehicle in the game that absolutely requires 2 people to operate is the Liberator.

belch · 2013-01-24, 08:31 PM

In all honesty, the ESF is more akin to an AH-64 than the Liberator. The Apache is an attack helicopter, and wasn't designed to carry enough armament to loiter. Honestly, they are hardly ideal for ground support beyond tank busting. An AC-130 is a gunship, and when you think of it like that, the Lib actually fills that role. We shouldn't get too much into real life comparisons though...I have never seen hordes of AC-130's, nor AH-64's like demonstrated in game with the Libs and ESFs.. The sheer numbers throws a lot of conventional roles for those platforms (attack aviation, gunships, etc.) right out the window.

Sunrock · 2013-01-24, 08:42 PM

What a load a BS... Air to ground was good as it was after the resent AA buff. No more changes are needed.

Saintlycow · 2013-01-24, 09:42 PM

I don't like it when I get rocketpodded in my flash. Makes me mad. Nerf a2g rockets, please

Slight troll post, But I would like the ability to dodge them. Feels like an instakill, as if all rockets arrived on my flash in the smae instant of time, denying me the ability to get away

Sunrock · 2013-01-24, 09:45 PM

Originally Posted by Saintlycow

I don't like it when I get rocketpodded in my flash. Makes me mad. Nerf a2g rockets, please

Slight troll post, But I would like the ability to dodge them. Feels like an instakill, as if all rockets arrived on my flash in the smae instant of time, denying me the ability to get away

Of course you can dodge them. You're just reacting too late... You need to react before he is 5m behind you and have already fired 4 shots. Situational awareness and all that.

Rothnang · 2013-01-25, 11:08 AM

Originally Posted by belch

In all honesty, the ESF is more akin to an AH-64 than the Liberator. The Apache is an attack helicopter, and wasn't designed to carry enough armament to loiter. Honestly, they are hardly ideal for ground support beyond tank busting. An AC-130 is a gunship, and when you think of it like that, the Lib actually fills that role. We shouldn't get too much into real life comparisons though...I have never seen hordes of AC-130's, nor AH-64's like demonstrated in game with the Libs and ESFs.. The sheer numbers throws a lot of conventional roles for those platforms (attack aviation, gunships, etc.) right out the window.

All the aircraft in PS2 carry way more ammo than any aircraft does in real life, with maybe the exception of an AC130. The thing about the AC130 is though, from a gameplay perspective it would be an awful aircraft. It flies around at night and has a huge complement of flares and chaff on it if enemies shoot missiles at it, and is not supposed to ever operate in an area where there are enemy aircraft or AA guns. It's just not really the kind of vehicle that pulls any impressive maneuvers.

As far as I'm concerned good gameplay should always be the primary concern of the devs, and right now airplanes in PS2 just don't really provide that. In order to have gameplay that you can really sink your teeth into you just need to have serious options for countering what the enemy throws at you. There is simply no amount of skill you can leverage in PS2 at this point that would allow you to go up against lockon spam or AA guns and get away unscathed. You can only fly in such a way that you're well on your way back to a safe spot by the time the damage you inevitably take adds up so much that you're one opportunistic ESF away from going down in flames.

Let's be real here, the counterplay for air against AA weapons is nonexistent at this point. You know what I enjoy? Taking a Liberator with the Tankbuster and fighting heavies that use dumbfire rockets with it, no bellygun. Yea, I know, it's just two people using the wrong weapons for the job to go at each other, but the reason why I enjoy the hell out of it is because you can actually dodge a dumbfire rocket that's coming straight at you, but it's not impossible for the guy to shoot you down, because in order to kill infantry with a tankbuster you need to hover. The reason why a missfit battle like that is way more enjoyable than Bellygun vs. Burster Max is because it's a real contest of skill. Then some craphead with one of the no-skill fun ruining AA weapons shows up and blows you out of the sky in seconds because you dared using your aircraft in a fun way instead of hovering 400 meters overhead with your finger on the "cheese it" button. Pheh.

Zakuak · 2013-01-25, 12:05 PM

Yeah Roth that is how I roll my Lib exclusively. Me and my TB on the hunt for stragglers and other lonewolfs. I solo and I do fly NOE 99% of the time, I from day one really didn't want to fly at 300 with a full crew in boring predictable paths and allow the gunner to have all the fun.

My lib is locked unless I let a squad member in but they soon want out because all they ever see it grass and tree trunks lol.

I love having a good run with some infantry on the ground when it's just me vs them....they seem to wanna play a bit more once they realize I'm not packing a belly gunner, granted it's only a matter of time before one of em runs out with a DB max but I enjoy the close hands on approach of this.

belch · 2013-01-25, 04:03 PM

@Rothnang:

Good points, and exactly why I am cautious about comparing current capabilities (IRL) with what is available in game. To me, the Lib looks like a natural progression from the gunship model of today, but that role can be somewhat boring for all except the belly gunner.

I actually think there is room for more aircraft...mainly in the way of transport. The Gal is great, but I was thinking something more along the lines of a Raptor (from BSG). Maybe halve the troop carrying capacity (6 total, counting pilot and 2 door gunners). Give it speed and agility between the Lib and the ESF. Maybe give up the troop carrying capacity for a gunship version if you wanted to cert into it...no huge belly guns but rockets and machine guns.

GrmlZ · 2013-01-26, 04:41 AM

A sci-fi Huey, i could live with that.

Rothnang · 2013-01-26, 07:13 AM

If I could just have a Liberator that trades the Bellygun for doors on the side and 6 more guys who can shoot out I would only fly that. I enjoy the hell out of just using the tankbuster and really feeling like a badass pilot, the only thing I always wish I had was the ability to insert a team of commandos to flip points.

The Bellygun is boring, it makes flying the Liberator boring,a and it makes fighting against it boring. Right now you are forced to use it, because all the things that can hit you when you don't use the bellygun kill you way too fast. 2 dumbfire rockets, 3 tank shells, and both of those things easily hit a Liberator that's fighting people with the Tankbuster, since you have to fly on the deck, right up in their face, and pretty slow. Any AA weapon also is twice as deadly when it shoots you while you're flying below 30 meters.

But hey, even if I do get blown up, at the very least I know that the guy who killed me got a kick out of seeing that giant bird come down like something out of Metal Slug. Sure, there will be scoffers who say i'm using the Liberator in a stupid way, but I had fun, my enemies had fun, so what's wrong with that? I do wish the game was more built around that kind of play, because obviously the Liberator goes down super easy when you use it like that.